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Why so few with manual safety?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Regen, Mar 27, 2007.

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  1. Regen

    Regen Member

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    It seems that new pistol designs that are coming out don't feature manual safeties, even as an option, why is this?

    Are people not buying guns with manual safeties? Is it that much more difficult to produce?

    Looking at the HK offerings the USP has manual safety variants but the P2000, P2000sk and P30 don't

    Does SigSauer offer any pistols with manual safeties?

    Springfield (other than 1911)?

    Beretta Px4 doesn't have a manual safety?
     
  2. CountGlockula

    CountGlockula Member

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    For a Glock's stand point, I'm thankful for my Glock 35 to not have a manual safety so I can pay attention to keeping my finger off the trigger unless needed.

    Also, it maybe it benefits the smooth drawing of a holstered Glock.
     
  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Because the level of training the average cop or soldier gets, fast, safe, and dependable manipulation of a manual safety is not feasible. The management types go for a hardware fix with what Jan Stevenson called "the convulsive response" of a DA or similar trigger with long and heavy enough pull to minimize the ADs.
     
  4. PPGMD

    PPGMD Member

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    I agree it's a shame that even as am option so few companies offer weapons with manual safeties.

    I personally like having the automatic and trigger safeties in a pistol, but I have always believed that you should take at least one action other then drawing and pulling the trigger that brings the weapons into firing mode.

    If the safety lever is positioned right you can disengage it, and draw the weapon bringing it up to fire all in one smooth motion. It took me only a few minutes to get the draw right on the USP's and 1911's that I tried.
     
  5. junyo

    junyo Member

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    I'm pretty sure it's because more than a few people have been in a gunfight, had a perfectly functional gun, and still not managed to get off a shot because in the heat of the moment they forget to flick the safety off.

    Now keep in mind that most guns have some sort of external safety device, like the Springfield XD's grip safety, but the trend is to make a gun that's un-f-upable; hold vaguely correctly, pointed the end with the hole in it towards the threat, squeeze the trigger, it goes boom.
     
  6. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    ...

    I can talk about 2 of the pistols you have mentioned.

    First, the Beretta Px4.. It was the first handgun I bought, in 40cal, and being new to them, I felt safe with the fact that they do come with a safety and decocker, all in one. However, after becoming familiar with the gun, and all safety rules that apply to all guns, and some 800 rounds fired so far, I found that one small issue popped up.

    While using both IWB and OWB holsters, occasionally, with the "bat-wing" design of the safety-decocker of the Beretta Px4, I would/did somehow knock the safety lever down into the safety position without knowing it, and that came as a surprise that I don't need, when you expect to aim and take a shot.

    Also, the Sig P229R CT Carry 9mm, I got, as my second gun, does not have a safety, just a decocker, and as I said, once one (in my case) overcomes the fear factor (which is good) that keeps you/one focused on; is my gun armed, or does it have dry-caps only, for dry-firing practice, is it armed and chambered, rdy to go, or unchambered, a form of safety, if you will.

    Either way, it is the time invested in getting to know your gun/s, and learning the safe-habits of the 4 rules of safety that, in my case, decided to have my Px4 40 F-model, changed-out to an G-model - decocker only, while keeping the bat-wing lever, which IMO, is much easier to decock with the thumb, while not compromising one's/my 2 hand grip on the gun, as is the same with the Sig P229R, or any Sig IIRC.

    So, if you want a safety and decocker lever all in one, to feel safe with, like if you have kids, etc., then a Beretta Px4 9mm or 40cal is a great gun IMO.

    But that little surprise of not knowing that the safety is engaged, can cause you/one grief when you need to take the shot, right now, and it's not there, as opposed to a decocker only, which when you activate it down, has a spring that brings the lever back up.

    So, as I said, you can use a method of keeping a gun unchambered, so any pull of the trigger, or release of the hammer, *without using the decock lever*, will not cause a discharge that is/was not expected nor wanted.

    *Always use the decocker to release a fully, or semi, (like the Px4 offer) cocked hammer, do-not do it manually with your thumb and trigger > NO NO. IMO.


    Good luck, hope this helps you out.



    LS
     
  7. Regen

    Regen Member

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    Px4 and HK

    I was wrong about the Px4 it appears that it does have a manual safety.

    What I really wonder about is why don't companies offer manual safeties as an option?

    I have a USP v1 (DA/SA with manual safety and decocker) and really wonder why HK doesn't make the P2000, or P30 with a manual safety option. Clearly HK could produce such pistols without much additional engineering (and the P2000 and P30 are more expensive than the USP).

    I really like the flexibility of cocked and locked, decocked or decocked and locked.
     
  8. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

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    IMO - the manual safety isn't needed. I carry (in theory) my USPc round chambered, hammer decocked, safety off. Guns that are DAO don't need'em and as long as you use a quality holster & maintain proper handling ettiquette, you'll be fine.
     
  9. hnk45acp

    hnk45acp Member

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    The new HK45 will be available with a safety and Sig Sauer now has Single Action Only pistols that have a manual safety. CZs also have safeties
    Another reason a safety is nice is for those that are concerned with a gun grab situation. The safety could save your life if the gun gets out of your hands and the BG doesn't know how to operate it. Passive safeties like grip safties and trigger safeties do nothing to prevent that
     
  10. redneckrepairs

    redneckrepairs Member

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    Pistols nowdays are more likely to be DAO action so no manual safety needed , like a double action revolver .
    I was in LE and transitioned from revolver to auto , back then da/sa was the thing most went to and you needed a safety/decocker for them as you did for a single action . Then came DAO ( which i predicted would go no where lol ) . I underestimated the forces that be ( from an average officer training/liability standpoint ) and what would soon be mandated for most officers . We have come full circle imho back to the old double action revolver that i started out with except now it takes mags and is quicker to reload . Oh and nowdays my carry gun is a DAO , so i guess even old dogs can learn , or maby not since i never could shoot as good with a da/sa as i could the old revolver. I still feel that the single action auto is most likely the best of all possible worlds to actually use gunfighting and gameplaying , but not every draw ends up as a shoot , and for the great unwashed among officers and ccw holders who dont train rigorously, myself included any more , the DAO is a safer choice with almost no loss of practical accuracy . Grab and go guns are good for ME , but you pick your own poison .
     
  11. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    Quote: I really like the flexibility of cocked and locked, decocked or decocked and locked.
    ...

    Well, that was the exact reason that I ruled out any guns that are hammer-less, like Glocks. With an external hammer, one can have a gun chambered, rdy to fire, with the hammer down, and in DA mode. And, if you need to draw out, for the right reason, the manual "clicking and sound it makes" to SA mode, can set the tone, to whomever is at the other end of your muzzle.. IMO.

    DA only usually have a 6.5lb/4.5lb pull weights IIRC, as compared to say, an avg of 10lbs DA pull weight, and 4.5lbs SA pull weight (Sigs) or like the Beretta Px4, DA pull weight of 7.5lbs IIRC, and slightly less in semi-cocked position, and a pull weight of 3.5lbs IIRC in SA mode.

    Personally I just could not feel comfy with, like most DA only guns that most carry, with, a fully-cocked hammer, rdy to go. But, again, it all comes down to personal choice, along with being time-spent/educated with what type gun one has IMO, including never put your finger on the trigger, until you have your sights on a target, and you're gonna shoot it.

    This applies in holstering and un-holstering (finger off trigger) as well and, any handling of a gun in general, always assuming that a gun is loaded > a safety feature, learned, thru good habit/s.


    LS
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2007
  12. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    Most new guns are double action/, Da/SA, or striker fired and are cocked by the trigger at least for the first shot. Most have a firing pin safety to block accidental discharge if the trigger is not pulled.

    IMHO only a Single action auto needs a manual safety.

    Idiots who are unsafe with a firearm will not use the safety anyway, or will turn it off before they pull the trigger while not following the safety rules. So with the exception of Single action only pistols, manually operated safetys are unnecessary and may even be a liability in the hands of an untrained or careless user.
     
  13. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    +1

    I am left handed, and while my 1911's all wear ambi safeties I have never bothered to install such an item on my DA guns (like my Makarovs) due to the fact that I don't find them necessary. I can carry a DA or DAO safely decocked without engaging the safety. I pocket carry a Kahr, and also carry Glocks without worrying about a manual safety lever.

    With the exception of SA semi-autos, the only safety you need is between your ears.
     
  14. RTFM

    RTFM member

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    [​IMG]

    Best manual safety out there.
    (Googled image.)

    Finger off the trigger.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2007
  15. tostada

    tostada Member

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    With something like a Ruger .22 with a 1 lb. trigger, I like having a safety. With any striker-fired or DAO gun, I just can't imagine when I'd ever use a safety. Anytime I would feel the need for a safety, I would actually prefer not to have a round chambered at all.

    Wouldn't racking the slide be one such action you could take?

    Seriously, with a defensive weapon, I think people are just about as familiar with the sound of a slide racking as they are with the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round. If you're going to use a safety, it might as well be one that screams "I'm prepared to shoot you."
     
  16. PPGMD

    PPGMD Member

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    I prefer to keep a round in the chamber. Racking the slide is not something that is quickly done in a firefight, unlike turning off the safety.
     
  17. tostada

    tostada Member

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    Suddenly becoming "in a firefight" with no warning just doesn't happen as often as people on internet forums like to think. Let's try to come up with realistic hypothetical situations.

    If there was potnential to be suddenly in a firefight without the 0.5 seconds to spare to chamber a round, then you should definitely already have one chambered. If such a situation was a possibility, there's no way I would have the safety on to begin with. But then there's also no way I'd be using the IWB holsters and ridiculous fanny-pack-like things that people seem to like so much, either.
     
  18. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    So how often do they happen?
     
  19. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    ...

    Only 2 ways to get involved in a firefight.. Looking for one, in which I would suggest taking a shoulder weapon as your primary weapon.

    Being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and being a lousy shot, and outnumbered, with 2 shots left in your last mag.. You should've gotten out of Dodge after no effect/s when the first mag emptied while loading your last mag and slipping away asap.. IMO
    ......................


    Quote:
    With the exception of SA semi-autos, > the only safety you need is between your ears.
    ...

    > Wish I'd said that.. That's it in a Nutshell.



    LS
     
  20. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    I think that it was Jeff Cooper who said something to the effect that you hoped that the goblins never showed up, but when they did it would be quick and violent.

    When the "excrement hits the oscillating device" your fine motor skills will go out the window, and you will be very happy to already have one in the pipe. I have only had one experience in my life when I had to produce a handgun in order to defend my life, and I am glad that all that was required was to put the front sight on the center of mass and flip the safety off with my thumb. Fortunately my attacker decided to stop dead in his tracks before I took the last few ounces out of the trigger pull but I am very thankful that I didn't have to rack the slide.

    I hope that I never have to pull a handgun again (I shook for 30 minutes following that encounter), but if I do it will be with a weapon that is ready to go.
     
  21. Jonathan

    Jonathan Member

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    I wish that the "safety between the ears" and "booger hook off the bang switch" phrases would just drop off the earth. :banghead: The concept of complete concious control over the trigger is a MYTH.

    In bad situations, a long trigger is the only safeguard you'll have against NDs. Heavy triggers help, but long is what matters.

    http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2499548&postcount=47

    At the risk of blowing my own horn, I like the way I explained it a while ago:
     
  22. Im283

    Im283 Member

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    I currently do not carry, but if I did I would like the fact that my 9mm Smith and Wesson has a long trigger pull, no safety. The safety will probably cause you to get shot, as would racking the pistol.

    In my life I have ony had one need to have a loaded and ready to fire gun. While working in a liquor store a few years ago I was robbed at shotgun point by two men. As they entered the store the gunman racked the shotgun. Had I been carrying, racking the pistol or flipping a safety switch would have been too late. End result most likely would have been losing my gun to a felon, and por being shot. Had I been carrying, I could have pulled and shot. Thinking back this would have been my option. Much better than laying on the ground with a shotgun to my head.

    The long trigger pull of my S&W 9mm would not have come into play. But the long pull would keep an accidental shot from firing.

    Believe me, I had time to pull and squeeze, that is all the time I had. Don't know or care if their gun was loaded. (DA would not tell me)

    I am preparing to get a carry permit. (No CCW in TN, just carry) I practice daily. I am not getting caught unarmed again. (once i am properly practiced and legal). Next time somebody gets shot.
     
  23. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    According to the rapper 50 Cent, in a 2003 interview with Mass Appeal magazine:

    "And forget the safety, *****s get killed with their gun on safety."


    -MV
     
  24. p2000sk

    p2000sk Member

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    Speaking of 50pence,
    When unholstered I like to point mine downrange with my palm facing downward, so I can see my squeeze digit.
     
  25. makarovnik

    makarovnik Member

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    A lot of people used to recommend revolvers for people who are just starting to carry. All you have to do is point it and pull the trigger. It's easy to use. Now we have double action only, and with a good internal blocking mechanism they are safe to carry a round in the chamber. Just as ready and safe as a revolver and easy to use. Often times more experienced shooters like a single action auto with a manual safety. It's nice to have the choice though.
     
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