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Why so many rounds?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Kano383, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    This isn't too debate your point, because I fully agree.
    Absolute last resort if all else has failed.

    I don't ever intend to draw in defense without meaning to fire.

    BUT! What if the agressor immediately reacts and withdraws upon recognizing your action?
    In that case, you have carried entirely too much ammo.
    Just sayin...
     
  2. Blacksmoke

    Blacksmoke Member

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    Six rounds of .38 Special 158 grain ammunition is not much of a burden. Nor is twelve. Perhaps two magazines totaling 34 rounds is but that is not my problem. At least not with my current choice of defensive handgun.
     
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  3. Glock Doctor

    Glock Doctor Member

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    It wouldn't have on the day that four (4) NYC gangbangers unexpectedly arrived at my home in order to, 'make their bones' on me for indirectly insulting their, 'supreme commander' or, whatever those guys are calling themselves, nowadays. (And that's no internet gun forum bullhooey, either!)

    The reality is that you do not actually know who, or how many, might be coming at you, or even when and where, 'the party' is going to start.)

    My favorite ('Barbecue') carry gun is a beautifully customized Smith & Wesson Model 686 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel. I had a specially designed Matt Del Fatti holster made for it, along with two of Matt's, 'split-the-belt' speedloader pouches; but, ...... I don't carry my beautiful ultra-fancy, Model 686 anymore.

    'Why'? Because after having survived that afternoon I'm no longer willing to accept — what I, now, perceive to be — the extraordinarily high risk of having only 6 shots with which to defend myself before I'm forced to reload. That's simply too much manual dexterity for that kind of mayhem; and as I, now, know: In today's United States of America, six bullets aren't enough!
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  4. TomJ
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    TomJ Member

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    We live in the Chicago area, and while our suburb has a low crime rate it's not uncommon for criminals/gang members to find their way here traveling in groups of 3 to 4 or more. My carry guns are relatively light, weighing 23 to 26 ounces unloaded and hold 10 to 15 rounds, depending on the gun. They're easy to carry and I lose nothing carrying the additional rounds. This is a decision that needs to be made based on where you live, the threats in your area, etc.
     
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  5. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Perceived needs, now you're starting to catch on. What are those perceptions based on? Real life or something else. All I'm saying is if you use real life, you'll find very few rounds fired.
     
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  6. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Home invasions are a whole different level of crime than street robberies. You also shouldn't have to rely on only one gun with whatever ammo is on you. That's why I don't think this fits in with the original post.. I really am glad to hear you survived. If you wind up in the crosshairs of a street gang that wants you dead then you should change what you carry and the amount of ammo.
     
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  7. bds
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    bds Member

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    Ding ding ding! Covered by post #5 on page 1 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-so-many-rounds.815451/#post-10443298
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  8. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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  9. Browning

    Browning Member

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    So the street gang is going to like what? Send you an email or a text that they'll be bumping into you at 19:32 tomorrow night and that the short interaction (where they feel 'disrespected' at the front of the 7/11 because you stepped in front of them and actually dared to look one of them in the eye) will turn violent and that you should bring extra ammo for the encounter cause you will then be in their crosshairs? Lol...wow
     
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  10. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    It's always been about what a person perceives he needs...with anything. Real? Delusion? Does it matter?
     
  11. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    This is what people THINK, but in reality, what usually happens is a person makes a decision about what he/she is willing to do/wants to do/likes doing and then rationalizes the decision after the fact to help themselves (and others) believe that the right decision has been made.

    So a person who carries a compact revolver for self-defense, for example, might have a lot of arguments for why 5 shots is enough and may be able to discourse at length about why it's stupid to carry a gun with more or less capacity, but in reality, those reasons probably have very little to do with why they carry a 5 shot revolver. They carry that revolver because they like the idea of/comfort of/convenience of that gun (or maybe because they don't have anything else, or that's what dad carried, or what their favorite TV character carried, etc.) and have therefore come up with a lot of arguments to help them feel good about what they do and to try to convince others understand how wise their decision was.

    Similarly, a person who likes a particular high-capacity pistol and carries it in self-defense, will likely have a lot of reasons why they carry so many rounds, but in all likelihood those reasons are post-rationalization, not the real reason(s) that they chose that gun in the first place.

    I'm not saying that's always the case, but it appears that it's more often the case than not.

    This is part of why these debates are often heated. The arguments presented don't sway anyone because those arguments aren't really the reasons for why they carry what they carry. So the facts don't (can't) sway them because the decision wasn't based on facts in the first place--the "facts" were simply part of the post-rationalization process.

    Another part of why these debates are typically heated is that most people tend to think that everyone falls into one of only three categories.

    Normal people: People who take exactly the same approach to SD as you do. (Carry the same type/capacity gun with the same number of reloads.)

    Nutty, paranoid people: Anyone who takes SD any farther than you do. (Carries a higher capacity gun and/or more reloads.)

    Complacent Sheeple: Anyone who takes a more relaxed view of SD than you do. (Carries a lower capcity gun and/or fewer reloads.)

    In reality, there's not a single right answer but nearly everyone feels like their answer has to be the only right one and any other answer must be wrong.

    For what its worth, I have 3 different carry strategies involving 3 different guns, depending on whether I can wear a separate cover garment, only an untucked shirt as a carry garment, or no cover garment with my shirt tucked in. The result is 3 different round counts. It can be really confusing trying to figure out which round count is the correct one and when I'm being paranoid or complacent. :D

    It's really more important to understand what sort of capability a given carry capacity provides than it is to try to determine an exactly correct carry round count. Knowing what sort of real-world limitations will be imposed by a given number of self-defense pistol rounds on tap can help a person develop reasonable strategies for various situations that are tailored to the number of rounds they carry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  12. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Actually it can. What do you tell the newbie who's looking for that first gun? Why would you not want to know what happens in real life?
     
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  13. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    How about asking questions? Like, do you have any specific needs or requirements? what platform do you prefer, if any? How much can you comfortably carry on a daily basis?

    I have a friend who is always asking me details about what I carry, and why.
    I ask him probing questions about what his needs are, because what I do in my life may not apply.
    Turns out he's getting a Sig 229, and will not likely carry a spare magazine.

    It wouldn't be my preference, but will probably work great for him.
     
  14. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    My exact load out, for years! The last few years that spare 17 round magazine has NATO 124g hard ball. I figure if the first 16 rounds have gone Bye-Bye, human problems are hiding somewhere now?
     
  15. Browning

    Browning Member

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    What I was saying there was that at that point in time in the thread people were posting videos and examples of shootings and 'the lone Viking' kept saying that they 'didn't count' for one reason or another (out of the country, in a store, etc).

    You know, because if a shootout or violent confrontation occurs in Brazil or happens in a store the laws governing body mechanics, general firearm design and physics suddenly don't apply. :)

    Anything to avoid getting any training, and to avoid carrying a few extra ounces in the way of a few extra rds in the actual gun and in the way of a reload I suppose. That sounds like a winning combination.

    I wasn't suggesting that people should avoid discussion on the topic merely because it's been discussed before.
     
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  16. Chuck R.

    Chuck R. Member

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    This should be a sticky, or at least reposted EVERY time this discussion comes up.

    I too have multiple carry options, based on what I can conceal due to activity/dress and this statement fits me perfectly:

    I prefer to carry a midsized pistol, because I can shoot it well. These usually fall into the G19/Commander size, small enough to conceal relatively easily, but large enough to be able to shoot all day, use in a match or take a high volume class with. I'm not a fan of sub-compacts or small revolvers due to the extra work I'll have to put in to shoot them well.

    For a long time I carried a 1911 Commander which with 7 or 8 +1 rounds which seems to fit in the "not paranoid" side of the house. About 8 years ago I made the transition to polymer (to save weight) and downsized caliber to 9mm due to doing more defensive shooting; one handed, weak handed, odd positions etc. and running more timed drills. That plus increased performance in 9mm ammo.

    A side effect was increased capacity to 13-16rds (I always carry a spare mag) and putting me into the paranoid side of things.

    The reality is I'm carrying the same sized pistol I always have, at about he same weight, it's just that now I have close to 2 times the amount of ammo on me; 15 VS 25.

    Chuck
     
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  17. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Some places are inherently more dangerous than others, I wouldn't want to be in Atlanta, Memphis, Chicago, ect...
    However, it only takes one psycho to turn a typically "good" area temporarily "bad" ....
    Lubys, Heath, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aroura, Chattanooga, San Bernardo, Orlando
    I think anyone unexpectedly caught in a situation like one of those ^ would want more than a snub or pocket pistol in their hand.
    A full size or "commander" 1911 provides a full grip and ease of shooting well with 8 or 9 rounds (45 acp) before needing to reload.
    Glock 19 is ridiculously easy to conceal and shoot well while offering 16 rounds capacity.
    My examples were mass shootings, which is not the "norm" but they happened.
    Okay, not mass shooter, rather just 1-3 determined attackers in anywhere USA...
    I'm somewhat guilty of rationalization of carry based on location, cause if I was going to be dropped off in Memphis, Chicago, ect... I'd carry a Glock 19 or 21 and several mags rather than a slimmer more comfortable IWB 1911 (plus two mags and a PM40 or PM9/Glock 43 in pocket).
    Point being, if defending my life I would prefer to have more gun in my hand than a 38 snub or 380 pocket pistol and carry accordingly.
     
  18. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    Um-you missed the fact that the issue was contextualized by the OP. Or are you just ignoring that to keep the argument going?



    Larry
     
  19. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Gang.. has anyone ever ran out of ammo in a SD situation in the USA? Yes, no, dunno?

    Of course there answer is yes, there are factual cases of this happening.

    Has there ever been a case of more than the 'average' number of rounds fired in the USA? Yep.. since 'average' does mean, uh, average. Sometimes more, sometimes less... So that pretty much indicates having a gun with more ammo not so much a bad idea.

    How many rounds? Well since I doubt anyone here has a crystal ball or is clairvoyant, then it's a guessing game.

    We hope to have enough to settle the matter at hand. Five may be enough or fifty may be to little.

    So it's up to you, Kemosabe, to decide how many rounds, how powerful, what kind of weapon, where to carry it, etc.

    There is no given minimum... nor maximum. And don't look at 'averages'. Averages don't help the person in the unique situation.

    I personally pack a Glock 26 with one spare mag (the spare a +1) with total of 22 rounds. On ultra concealment days I take a Glock 43 with 1 spare mag (both +1 mags.) Total of 15 rounds. I don't care of you pack a Glock 34 with five 30 round mags... or a 2 shot derringer with no reload. I DON'T CARE.

    See, it's your posterior Kemosabe. You pay your price and take your pick. Just don't come a-crying if things don't work out as the 'averages' indicate.

    Deaf
     
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  20. azrocks

    azrocks Member

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    Think... harder...
    6 pages arguing if having more of something is better?

    I don't get it.
     
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  21. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    As always Deaf, you make sense. When I served on the board of IALEFI for 20 years, my bleating about Hi Capacity 9mm's, got me endless grief.
    Knowing about gun fights, I had drawn, and pointed, quite a few times, but not shot anyone with a carry pistol, ever.

    Now, physical fights, with and without hand held weapons, lots, and lots! Both in my somewhat, turbulent life in the UK, and Australia. Then as a helper in my Dad's Pub, and as a Bouncer for 5 years in Liverpool UK, 60 till 65. Thur/Fri/and Sat nights. For extra cash, to supplement my full time job.

    The one thing those years taught me, and in depth, situation awareness.
    Instant assessment, and hit! I started nearly all of the fights I was in! You do not loose the ones you start.
    Spending over 25 years teaching people to qualify to carry pistols, at work, and fight with same. Plus IPSC/IDPA competition, gun handling became second nature.

    But my mantra, always the same, SAME GUN,SAME PLACE ALWAYS. SAME ON BELT KIT. GLOCK 19, G17 SPARE MAG. FLASH LIGHT. FOLDING KNIFE.

    I shoot it well. The thing I have noticed in fights, you react more or less always the same.
    It is really helpful, to never have to think, the hands know were to go. Because it is always the same.
    Of course when you reach 81 YOA? I must have done something right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  22. Bang!

    Bang! Member

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    Some guy in East Africa is laughing his butt off.
     
  23. bds
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    bds Member

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    It could be true that if we lived where OP lives, 2-3 rounds may be sufficient.

    There may be places on this planet where 1 round may be plenty and perhaps even mere display of firearm may be sufficient.

    I wish to live in such a place but in my world full of tall redwood trees and fast moving silent mountain lions, no amount of ammunition may be enough if I can't hear/see my threats and move fast enough to draw and shoot.
     
  24. HankB

    HankB Member

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    As far as ammo capacity is concerned, "spray and pray" comes about from poor training and improper mindset . . . but I've never spoken to a gunfight survivor who said "Darn it, I had too much ammunition available!"

    I'm probably among the few readers of this board who recognizes and appreciates this reference without using Google. :cool:
     
  25. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    81! Congratulations! I'm a youngster at 62. And yes you did lots right to reach such a grand age. Few are smart enough. Most die much earlier cause they didn't keep their heads up and eyes peeled.

    Oh, btw, long time ago where I worked they had their own PD. I knew the chief well (he was an ex-NYPD cop of 19 years.) He was against semi-autos. He had the same doubts about ammo capacity. I showed him Ayoob's book, "The Semi-automatic Pistol in Police Service" and convinced him to let his officers to carry semi-automatics.

    Deaf
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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