Why the attitude between single stack .45 and 9mm?

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I hereby and forthwith declare Sam1911 the Winner of This Thread.

Gong back to the OP, though:
HammsBeer said:
. . . . to simplify, I'm wondering at what round count would you start to trade caliber size for more capacity in equal sized small guns?
I compare at every round count. If I'm eyeballing something that holds 10 rounds of .45, I have to at least consider what a comparably-sized 9mm holds. For example, I've had my eye on the XDm 3.8" Compact in .45 for years. Still, every time I think I'm ready to pull the trigger (as it were), I start comparing size, weight, caliber, and capacity against my G19. And then I have to weigh all of that against my intended use for the pistol. Either would work for CC, and I'd love to have the XDm. Unfortunately, it's not in the budget and I'm not willing to trade a perfectly good G19 off to finance it.

At what point do I start to "trade?" Well, I can't say that I've ever traded on a straight "caliber for capacity" basis. I did move from carrying a .45 to a 9mm several years ago, and "caliber vs. capacity" was part of the equation, but so was weight, and how the guns on the Short List felt in my hand, etc. Whenever I choose a new gun, I figure out how I intend to use it, then start weighing price, caliber, capacity, aftermarket support, etc.

As for as "why the attitude?" There's a whole lot of pride involved for lots of folks. If they've chosen the 6.66 Boomenmaster round for carry, then it has to be the best thing since sliced bread, and everyone should carry it. I love the .45 acp, but I carry a 9mm. My G19 carries easily and I shoot it well. If I had the budget for that XDM, and the practice that it would take to get as good with it as I am with my G19, I might well carry the XDm.
 
Thanks for this thread. Just some thoughts:
Today, while off-duty, I ran around town with my (8+1 .45ACP) 1911.
Soon, I'll be going into work and now have my issued & mandated Glock 17 (17+1 9mm) on.

After all these years, I'd never weighed these two guns:
My railed 1911 loaded, 2 lbs., 15.7 oz.
Glock 17gen4 loaded, 2 lbs., 2.1 oz.

I do feel the weight difference, but it's not necessarily bothersome.
My total clothing (off-duty), stuff in pockets, & pistol averages ~13 lbs.
I have several handguns and like to shoot them all. It does take some desire/discipline to take the time to shoot different guns to maintain a degree of proficiency.
I'm usually carrying some model of Glock, but might be carrying something else (again, off-duty) mainly, depending on my mood/preference.
 
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HammsBeer wrote,
I hear all sorts of attitudes/statements (on the net and in gun shops) about carrying a single stack .45 with 7 or 8 rounds as a serious defensive gun for carry or home protection, but then bemoan a single stack 9mm with maybe 8 or 9 rounds as barely adequate capacity for the same purposes. What gives?
I practically never see an argument regarding this topic.

I see a lot of….

"I'd never carry a 1911 since they are too heavy and the capacity is too low. You'll get yourself killed on the street."

and from the other side…

"Those guys with high cap guns are just spray and pray."

You never see anybody complain about the low capacity of revolvers, though admittedly the revolver discussions are usually limited to the revolver sub forum and those guys know what and why they made their choice, and you never see the capacity issue come up with those that choose to carry a little .380.

I think the reason I don't ever see the argument against the "low capacity" 9MM is the guys that shoot .45 Auto really believe whatever that round count would be is adequate, and the 9MM guys really believe the 9MM is the better round anyway, so neither camp is willing to jump on the "low capacity" 9MM options. Just my take from being on several forums for several years.
 
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That's all fine and dandy. But your 'lil 3" 9mm single stack actually has to hit the target first.
Would it be easier to hit the target repeatedly with a 3" single-stack 9mm, or a .45 the same size as a 3" single-stack 9mm?

I think the point is that for a given size, a 9mm recoils less and has better reserve capacity, and the difference in effectiveness with modern loads isn't big enough to offset those advantages, in a lot of people's opinion (including mine). That's not to say that .45 ACP is a bad round, just pointing out why a lot of us who shoot 9mm's chose it.

9mm is also somewhat more economical to shoot regularly.
 
Most people that discuss this 45 vs. 9mm or single vs. double stack never consider or discuss " actual " conditions before selecting a weapon... No one mentions Offensive tactical assault ( this is a weapon for police and other law enforcement agencies ) Most are handcuffed by budget oversight ) meaning getting an exceptional weapon to get the job done for the cheapest price ).....

Now let's talk about a defensive weapon (one most owners will never put into service in their life time, but carry every day ) When most civilian robberies or muggings occur under 21 feet, they also usually last no more than 20/30 seconds.

So unless you are pretending to be some sore of civilian SWAT team member, hoping to be called into service by" real "Trained tactical law enforcement, you are just living a fantacy....

Now back to reality.. defensive carry ( light weight and comfortable to carry ) something that will allow you to deploy it quickly "AFTER " a threat has been recognized... So you only have a mille second to react to someone who has already targeted you as a victim, and has already threatened you.

Offensive weapon are deployed before they enter the fight ( this is what cops do... high volume weapons with as much horse power as their budget will allow.

I carry a defensive weapon.. one that in two previous civilian encounters over the last 30 years has rendered me the winner... I carry a light weight ( 25 oz. aluminum frame 45 ACP ) If I can not get it done with 8 shots from less than 21 feet in under 20 seconds, then I'm dead already.. so for me, anyone carrying a double stack, defensive weapon, will carry a ton of extra weight they will never need or use over the course of their life time.

Just my point of view from over 50 years of carry both in offensive tactical discipline, and for the last 35 years in defensive concealed discipline

Not meant to be argumentative, just one guys opinion, over a long life of weapons carry and weapons use ( both offensively and defensively ) to defend my live in both military and civilian deployments.

Bill aka ET
 
Uhhh. Start by waking up one day and saying to yourself, "Self, wouldn't it be great if half of these people hated my guts?..." ;)
 
Some of the goofy "fantasy" stuff about more powerful calibers, or higher capacity magazines, ain't so funny anymore.

The freeway keeps getting blocked by mobs. A few even in areas I never expected. Everyone in the mob looked like a complete idiot. (being serious, these weren't rocket scientists) Just takes one random stone to be thrown and then all heck breaks out with a group like that.

Riots. Heck even a power outage, 48hours, and people get wacky.
 
Because "most" gun owners, and especially those who feel entitled because they have a permit to carry, have a lot of attitude, that why most of these gun forums are filled with chest pounding testosterone filled 40 year old adolescents... It was an almost unbelievable experience to come here after so many other gun forums, and be able to remove my gun forum armor.

Incidentally,, I said " Most ".... meaning Not all.....
Bill aka ET
Very true...
 
Uhhh. Start by waking up one day and saying to yourself, "Self, wouldn't it be great if half of these people hated my guts?..." ;)
What??? :eek: With such eloquent post as post 32 espousing such truth and virtue?:D (OK I sure stop before I use a wrong fancy word.)

Seriously though, you do help calm a bunch of these threads without having to use your mod voice.
 
I carry a 45 because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Considering the majority of SD and HD scenarios end very quickly and with very few shots fired, I don't really think it matters. Heck, how many people carry s J frame and will never need it!

Tactical reload talk and the need to have 45 rounds on tap are just internet fantasies in my opinion. That being said, there is no reason to limit yourself if it's a HD or open carry gun.

As far as a specific number of rounds where I try to balance round count with caliber, I have no specifics. I just like a 45 and feel having 6 rounds in my carry gun and 10 in my HD gun is adequate.

9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 acp are are effective for SD against a human sized aggressor. So carry what you like.
 
Tactical reload talk and the need to have 45 rounds on tap are just internet fantasies in my opinion. That being said, there is no reason to limit yourself if it's a HD or open carry gun.

+1

Yep same here. Glock 19 for home defense and times when i can EDC it, Glock 43 for all else.
 
A WWII acquaintance of mine talks about his GI buddy walking into a room, being surprised by an enemy, and blew that enemy across the room with one shot to the chest!

Good enough for me!
 
A WWII acquaintance of mine talks about his GI buddy walking into a room, being surprised by an enemy, and blew that enemy across the room with one shot to the chest!

Your acquaintance may have been telling it as it was told to him, or (if he saw it) as he remembers it, so there's no reason to think he was trying to be untruthful... But, it can't be done.

His GI Buddy MIGHT HAVE knocked someone down with a handgun -- if he hit the right spot -- and the person hit might have fallen over furniture or tripped and fell backwards as he went down, but it's not physically possible to blow someone across a room with a handgun. You see it in movies, but not in real life -- there's not enough power or force or bullet mass or bullet speed/velocity from a .45 (or arguably any) handgun round to blow a person across the room.
 
I can push a standing person five feet backwards with just two fingers and 30 lbs of force.
I've hit 120 lb enemy in their typical squat position and they will fall backward 4 or 5 feet. with ball ammo from my issued Colt 1911 and they don't get up. if you hit someone in the solar plexus the energy with dissipate and push push the rib cage backward and also drive the person backward based on how close the target is. 45 acp has the ability to keep all the energy closer to the entry wound.. hit a bone or a chest plate and that energy will indeed push you backward. Take a 110 or 120 lb Asian body type and a 45 ACP will devastate them. So while many war stories can grow over the years when passed from person to person.. But no one forgets their first kill ( May 18th 1965 ) .
 
Good grief! It is bad enough that some people still believe in some handguns having one shot stopping power, but now we have people posting about knock down power that pushes humans backwards. We have obviously entered The Twilight Zone where physical laws are suspended. :rolleyes:
 
Evil Twin said:
I can push a standing person five feet backwards with just two fingers and 30 lbs of force.
I've hit 120 lb enemy in their typical squat position and they will fall backward 4 or 5 feet. with ball ammo from my issued Colt 1911 and they don't get up. if you hit someone in the solar plexus the energy with dissipate and push push the rib cage backward and also drive the person backward based on how close the target is. 45 acp has the ability to keep all the energy closer to the entry wound.. hit a bone or a chest plate and that energy will indeed push you backward. Take a 110 or 120 lb Asian body type and a 45 ACP will devastate them. So while many war stories can grow over the years when passed from person to person.. But no one forgets their first kill ( May 18th 1965 ) .

I don't doubt anything you wrote. But I would argue that PUSHING someone so that they fall backward, knocking them down or off balance, is NOT THE SAME AS BLOWING AN ENEMY ACROSS A ROOM.

Hang a bag with maybe 50 lbs -100 lbs. of sand in it from a rope and shoot it with a .45 round and see how far that bag of sand moves. Set it on the ground, if you like... it's still the same idea.

Better yet check out any of the MANY self-defense ammo tests using Ballistic Gel (which is a simulation of human tissue) on YouTube. When hit by handgun rounds, the Gel doesn't get blown off the table -- the bullet passes through it... If you hang several layers of denim or leather in front of the simulated human tissue and shoot it, it still isn't knocked off the table.. If you imbed simulated bone material in the gel, it still doesn't get moved off the table -- the bullet just doesn't travel as far.
 
:D
OK, so which is better?

Neither. Both. It depends on factors other than just the terminal ballistic qualities of any one round of ammunition of either caliber. The differences in terminal ballistic qualities of both cartridges are not something that needs to be worried about; of far more importance is the gun for the cartridge and the operators ability to get the most performance from that gun.
 
I'm talking about two identical sized smaller guns suitable for ccw.

Would you carry a one shot .45 or a two shot 9mm?

As carry guns get smaller, at what threshold do you feel you would trade caliber size for more capacity?

At 9mm. All the tests I've seen show that .45 and 9mm are effectively the same round. The only round that does anything close to significantly better for pistols is 10mm. Frankly 9mm is just about the cheapest pistol ammo you can buy and does the job just as well if not better than every other pistol cartridge with the exception of 10mm. And this is from the guy who thinks a 1911 isn't a 1911 unless it's in .45 ACP.
 
Recently finished the "high reverend" Mas Ayoob's THE AYOOB FILES. Buy it and read it before chiming in on another 9mm vs .45ACP debate and you'll chuckle as I have.

Main point I see missing here is this: RIFLE bullets matter more than pistol caliber bullets. Talk to any major city's trauma surgeons and you will understand what is incontrovertible fact. There is NO SIGNIFICANT difference in wounding from the major pistol calibers (except maybe .44mag). The major factor in a gunfight is to bring a rifle... as we all know that is impossible for concealed carry, we piss and moan fretting about who has the best pistol. Shot placement is key, and in the event of multiple assailants I'd opt for more than 14rds. A Glock 19 w/ 2 spare G17 mags loaded up with 49rds of Win PDX is more comforting than 28rds of .45 Auto. Ask the survivors of Miami Shootout which they would have preferred (albeit Platt & Mattix's Ruger Mini-14 was the real game changer).

FWIW, I own pistols chambered in 9, .45, and .357. I carry the Glock 19 way more than the Kimber due to comfort and shootability. I think the debate by now should really be wood/blue steel vs. plastic/Melonite, but that is my sentimental side showing. Why not carry the .357? I don't want a SAA to be my CCW piece! :D Anyway, let the drivel continue. YMMV :)
 
I don't doubt anything you wrote. But I would argue that PUSHING someone so that they fall backward, knocking them down or off balance, is NOT THE SAME AS BLOWING AN ENEMY ACROSS A ROOM.

Hang a bag with maybe 50 lbs -100 lbs. of sand in it from a rope and shoot it with a .45 round and see how far that bag of sand moves. Set it on the ground, if you like... it's still the same idea.

Better yet check out any of the MANY self-defense ammo tests using Ballistic Gel (which is a simulation of human tissue) on YouTube. When hit by handgun rounds, the Gel doesn't get blown off the table -- the bullet passes through it... If you hang several layers of denim or leather in front of the simulated human tissue and shoot it, it still isn't knocked off the table.. If you imbed simulated bone material in the gel, it still doesn't get moved off the table -- the bullet just doesn't travel as far.
Walt, I do not want to argue the point, but ballistic gel on a table has a high frictional coefficient ( friction keeps it in place )... with a 24" by 36" foot print... but put that gel on two legs supported only by 40 square inches of foot print ( 2 feet )...standing at a moment angle that would represent a 5' 5"standing person and all that ballistic stuff goes right out the window...

It's like the very common expression used by many instructors...Shot placement...
While shot placement is a nice thing and fairly easy to achieve at a range... with practice..
Now reality:
try shot placement when the target is moving and is shooting back... in combat, shot placement is called luck.. it is replaced by the term fire superiority.... fields of fire and fire suppression... none of these things are taught in civilian instructions..

Even when cops take tactical stress training, they know when they go to that training day, they will be coming home that night...so there is no fear of loss of life.

When the target is shooting back, and you are under stress, your heart rate goes from 60 beats per minute to 150 bpm... trying using hold discipline, breathing technique, taking up the slack and squeezing the trigger when the target is shooting back... shot placement is trumped by throwing fire superiority at the target..

Just an FYI... last years there was a gang banger assault in east LA, two rival gangs, all automatic weapons... 475 round fired from ten different gang members from two rival gangs.. with 475 rounds fired ( casings on the ground most 9mm. ) at close range .. no one was killed, and only three were wounded, cops arrived to clean up and arrest or hospitalize all ten... I don't have the link but it was posted last year... this notion of shot placement should not be anyone's idea of confidence, since any practice at a range does not place stress in the shot placement equation...
But with that said.. at 70 years of age, I practice every week with my actual EDC and with the ammo I choose to carry in it... I do this to keep my edge, retain my muscle tone, and muscle memory... I also do not change carry weapons from day to day... no one has the time to think which weapon they are using on any given day let alone how it fires or feels.... when you are the victim of someone's aggression they have already put into motion their attack on you. you need every advantage you can get to overcome being second to know that you are a victim of someone's desire to rob you or mug you.

it took me ten patrols over a month to throw away my fear of death... when that happens stress is lowered to the point where you can actually make good decisions. that's why seasoned troops are sent out with green troops, so they can get their confidence, and make smart decisions.

be aware of your surroundings, be confident in your weapon and most of all , be careful who you listen too in these forums.. many so called experts have never been in a stressful assault, let alone the life altering taking of another human life. Yet they seem to have it all mapped out.. and they seem to have no problem calling people names when their targets ( experienced forum members ) are experience combatants.
 
If the impact of a bullet was capable of knocking down a target, it would also knock down the shooter. Isaac Newton is your friend. Third law and all that.
 
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