Why the DA in an SA/DA pistol without a decocker?

[tcj]

1911's are normally carried cocked with one in the chamber - they have 3 safeties: frame mounted lever, grip and the one between your ears .

Personally I prefer safeties over decockers if for no other reason all of my handguns are operated the same way (CZ's, 1911's, etc.).

 

[stchman]

Cracks me up, just because someone has been "doing it for a long time" doesn't mean they are incapable of making a mistake.

I know I am going to get some heat, but here goes. This is all my opinion.

DA/SA guns without a de-cocker aren't very good choices at all for concealed carry. Heck, DA/SA guns with a decocker aren't that great a choice but are better than ones with a safety only. DAO striker fired or DAO hammer fired with heavy trigger pulls are a much better choice. No need to have a really light, crisp target trigger on a CCW gun. With all this being said I know I am going to hear "I've been carrying my 1911 cocked and locked for years with no trouble", great, still not a good choice IMO. Guns with too many controls aren't great choices.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Cracks me up, just because someone has been "doing it for a long time" doesn't mean they are incapable of making a mistake.

That's why you use procedures that ensure that if a mistake is made, there can be no serious effects. Hence, why I said, " ...0% chance of discharge unless you have problems with your thumbs becoming insubstantial." If you screw up, you just have a hammer on your thumb. If you do have thumbs that are prone to becoming insubstantial, then you have problems larger than choosing DA/SA or Striker.

And yes, in general, if a procedure has been in use for thousands of repetitions with zero failures, it is considered safe.

And no, your opinion shouldn't catch much heat. It's clearly stated as an opinion then not backed up by anything what so ever, so it can just be discarded and ignored. You might as well have just said, "Elephants aren't very good animals. Rhinos as a little better, but not much."

Although, you did open the door to an all new hilarious path to take this thread. If you think DAO Striker is inherently safer than DA/SA, let's talk Glock Leg. A particular issue so common with striker fired guns that it's been given it's own name. Funny now that I think about it how Beretta, 3rd Gen Smiths, CZs and the whole herd of DA/SA guns managed to avoid having a term coined for how their users manage to accidentally shoot themselves..

And no, 1911s are not DA/SA, so they don't really belong in the discussion.

 

[stchman]

That's why you use procedures that ensure that if a mistake is made, there can be no serious effects. Hence, why I said, " ...0% chance of discharge unless you have problems with your thumbs becoming insubstantial." If you screw up, you just have a hammer on your thumb. If you do have thumbs that are prone to becoming insubstantial, then you have problems larger than choosing DA/SA or Striker.

And yes, in general, if a procedure has been in use for thousands of repetitions with zero failures, it is considered safe.

And no, your opinion shouldn't catch much heat. It's clearly stated as an opinion then not backed up by anything what so ever, so it can just be discarded and ignored. You might as well have just said, "Elephants aren't very good animals. Rhinos as a little better, but not much."

Although, you did open the door to an all new hilarious path to take this thread. If you think DAO Striker is inherently safer than DA/SA, let's talk Glock Leg. A particular issue so common with striker fired guns that it's been given it's own name. Funny now that I think about it how Beretta, 3rd Gen Smiths, CZs and the whole herd of DA/SA guns managed to avoid having a term coined for how their users manage to accidentally shoot themselves..

And no, 1911s are not DA/SA, so they don't really belong in the discussion.

Many CCW instructors echo my sentiments on DAO pistols with no manual safety. I've never heard a CCW instructor recommend a DA/SA without a de-cocker. In the end it is up to the choice of the individual as to what they want to carry.

As far as "Glock Leg", that's just an idiot trying to holster their pistol with their finger still on the trigger. I don't see how that is ONLY something that can happen when one has a Glock in their hand? I guess the Internets has deemed it so?

 

[JTQ]

This is all my opinion.

...for concealed carry. Guns with too many controls aren't great choices.

Conversely, this is my opinion, and echoed by others...

Guns that are easier to shoot when you want to shoot them, are also easier to shoot when you don't want to shoot them.

For a range gun, that is shot every time the gun is unholstered, and is shot more than it is carried, sure, a gun with that is easy to shoot is an advantage. Conversely, a gun that is handled often, and shot seldom, like a concealed carry gun, may be better off with a trigger or other controls that make shooting the gun, whether intentionally, or more importantly, unintentionally, less easy.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Many CCW instructors echo my sentiments on DAO pistols with no manual safety

So, you've gone from unsupported opinion to an Appeal to Authority fallacy... You are actually going the wrong way on the credibility scale.

But, let me reverse the whip on that Appeal to Authority. When Texas "reexamined" their rules for qualification to be a CHL (This was before it was called LTC) instructor, every previously certified CHL instructor had to be certified by an outside agency before they could renew with Texas. We spent months with classes full of CHL instructors. Never before had I been witness to a group of people so collectively ignorant and dangerous than CHL Instructors. I have kicked more CHL instructors out of my classes than any other student group. So yeah, I'm not impressed when I hear "XXX CHL Instructor says..."

I don't see how that is ONLY something that can happen when one has a Glock in their hand? I guess the Internets has deemed it so?

Well, for one, with a DA/SA pistol, you place your thumb over the back of the hammer while pushing the gun into the holster.

But, you have proven the point for me. Glocks are dangerous when proper safety protocols aren't followed. You know, just like decocking a DA/SA using the wrong technique. If proper safety protocols are followed, both are safe. Thank you for proving my point by attempting to disagree.

 

[GBExpat]

Cracks me up, just because someone has been "doing it for a long time" doesn't mean they are incapable of making a mistake.

??? Someone in this Thread has claimed that they were incapable of making a mistake because they have been "doing it for a long time"?

I have only read a couple of the posts ... so now I will have to start at the beginning and read them all. <sigh>

EDIT: Done. Nope, didn't see that any of the posters made such a claim.

 

[stchman]

Well, for one, with a DA/SA pistol, you place your thumb over the back of the hammer while pushing the gun into the holster.

But, you have proven the point for me. Glocks are dangerous when proper safety protocols aren't followed. You know, just like decocking a DA/SA using the wrong technique. If proper safety protocols are followed, both are safe. Thank you for proving my point by attempting to disagree.

I believe that ANY firearm is dangerous when proper safety protocols aren't followed. I guess in Texas, DA/SA guns are idiot proof?

So it is impossible to put a DA/SA pistol in a holster improperly? The idiot that would succumb to "Glock Leg" if he/she was holstering a Glock would be protected by the presence of a hammer on the back of their gun? Wow, very informative.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The idiot that would succumb to "Glock Leg" if he/she was holstering a Glock would be protected by the presence of a hammer on the back of their gun?

You know, it's always easy to spot the guy speaking above his experience level... he's the one mystified by a technique well known to all.

 

[stchman]

You know, it's always easy to spot the guy speaking above his experience level... he's the one mystified by a technique well known to all.

Yes, it is people that berate others to make themselves feel better.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Yes, it is people that berate others to make themselves feel better.

Okay, let me ask this in a more polite way then. Do you understand how putting ones thumb on the back of the hammer while holstering a DA pistol prevents a discharge?

If you do, then why did you ask this:

The idiot that would succumb to "Glock Leg" if he/she was holstering a Glock would be protected by the presence of a hammer on the back of their gun?

You see, that statement, and your earlier statement:

As far as "Glock Leg", that's just an idiot trying to holster their pistol with their finger still on the trigger. I don't see how that is ONLY something that can happen when one has a Glock in their hand?

...Both lead me to believe that you don't really understand that placing ones thumb on the back of the hammer while holstering a DA pistol can prevent a discharge, while that doesn't work on a striker fired pistol like a Glock.


So, either you understand that placing ones thumb on the back of the hammer of a DA gun while holstering is a safety feature inherent to the design... and you are just trolling.

Or, you didn't know that and you decided to keep posting without first taking a moment to google "Thumb, hammer, reholster" and have decided to make your heroic, yet futile, last stand trying to pretend it's not a thing.

You pick.

But yeah, in answer to your previous question, a person who might Glock Leg themselves with a striker fired gun has a real good chance to not Glock Leg themselves with a DA gun, because Thumb, Hammer. Also, as I implied, people with enough experience to properly weight the pros and cons of various types of pistol actions wouldn't have had to ask a question like that.

 

[Monac]

Back when the UseNet was still a thing people used to talk about specialized interests, I used to read newsgroups on an odd variety of stuff that I had some interest in: Silent movies, locksmithing, coin collecting, etc.

There was, as far as I could tell, no subject whatsoever that people could NOT get into bitter personal arguments about. Was Charlie Chaplin a Communist? Did he ever really start making a movie called "Life"? Is there such thing as "forensic" locksmithing? Is it proper to give credit to the research on American coins done by a guy who turned out to be a child molester? Nothing is beyond the capability of people to get angry about.

I was younger then, and it was eye-opening for me. Now I have learned to expect it.

 

[TN Outlaw]

Okay, let me ask this in a more polite way then. Do you understand how putting ones thumb on the back of the hammer while holstering a DA pistol prevents a discharge?

If you do, then why did you ask this:



You see, that statement, and your earlier statement:



...Both lead me to believe that you don't really understand that placing ones thumb on the back of the hammer while holstering a DA pistol can prevent a discharge, while that doesn't work on a striker fired pistol like a Glock.


So, either you understand that placing ones thumb on the back of the hammer of a DA gun while holstering is a safety feature inherent to the design... and you are just trolling.

Or, you didn't know that and you decided to keep posting without first taking a moment to google "Thumb, hammer, reholster" and have decided to make your heroic, yet futile, last stand trying to pretend it's not a thing.

You pick.

But yeah, in answer to your previous question, a person who might Glock Leg themselves with a striker fired gun has a real good chance to not Glock Leg themselves with a DA gun, because Thumb, Hammer. Also, as I implied, people with enough experience to properly weight the pros and cons of various types of pistol actions wouldn't have had to ask a question like that.

Not to get in the middle of you guys' bickering, but I do believe it was stchman's point that the same person that would be likely to end up with "glock leg" would therein also be likely for "DA/SA leg" not because of design as you so smartly pointed out but as in the same person that would fail to follow proper safety procedures with one design is pretty likely to not follow the safety procedures of another.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

[stchman]

But yeah, in answer to your previous question, a person who might Glock Leg themselves with a striker fired gun has a real good chance to not Glock Leg themselves with a DA gun, because Thumb, Hammer. Also, as I implied, people with enough experience to properly weight the pros and cons of various types of pistol actions wouldn't have had to ask a question like that.

Thankfully we have such sharp people like you around to keep all us lesser people straight.

Not to get in the middle of you guys' bickering, but I do believe it was stchman's point that the same person that would be likely to end up with "glock leg" would therein also be likely for "DA/SA leg" not because of design as you so smartly pointed out but as in the same person that would fail to follow proper safety procedures with one design is pretty likely to not follow the safety procedures of another.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

Thank you, I was wondering when Click D'oh was going to get it. Idiots are going to be idiots no matter the gun design. I always try to be mindful on my trigger finger, where I point the gun, etc. It's not as though only careless people shoot Glocks and when they buy a DA/SA, they all of the sudden get super firearms safe.

 

[<*(((><]

I believe that ANY firearm is dangerous when proper safety protocols aren't followed. I guess in Texas, DA/SA guns are idiot proof?

So it is impossible to put a DA/SA pistol in a holster improperly? The idiot that would succumb to "Glock Leg" if he/she was holstering a Glock would be protected by the presence of a hammer on the back of their gun? Wow, very informative.

I believe the point @ClickClickD'oh was trying to make of having ones thumb on a hammered pistol as one is holstering is that one can feel the hammer coming back if something is pulling back on the trigger whether it be clothing, debris in holster, ones finger, etc.

I'm just trying to provide some clarification as to procedures of holstering that some might not be aware of.

And much truth in @Monac's post. I think the original posters question was answered a couple of pages back.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

but I do believe it was stchman's point that the same person that would be likely to end up with "glock leg" would therein also be likely for "DA/SA leg" not because of design as you so smartly pointed out but as in the same person that would fail to follow proper safety procedures with one design is pretty likely to not follow the safety procedures of another.

Well then, we would have to discount all his posts in this thread entirely. Follow:

Monac: DA hammer guns aren't good for concealed carry because they can't be decocked safely (let's just skip the lie of that)
Me: Uh, Glock leg
Monac: Idiots going to idiot
Me: Et tu, RE Decocking.

Thus ends monacs point on his own petard, because idiots going to idiot decocking, so the (incorrectly) perceived danger of the act is out of consideration.

If "Idiots going to idiot" is to be a valid excuse to hand wave a safety deficiency in one particular type of pistol, it must logically be extended to all.

 

[Monac]

A) ClickClickD'oh, when you use my name in your post, I think you are shooting at the wrong target. I did not say the things you quote me as saying. Maybe someone else did.

B) What I did say was that lowering the hammer of a cocked pistol on a live round was the kind of thing where, if enough people did it enough times, accidental discharges were certain to occur. It is a question of when, not if. I stand by that statement.

(I assume the pistol is the type we are talking about here, one without a decocking mechanism. Decockers can fail too - I have a Romanian clone of a Walther PP / PPK where the safety/decocker will fire the pistol if you use it while holding the pistol on its side - but it reduces the numbers of accidents by a useful factor.)

 

[LAH]

Doing it unloaded helps a lot in becoming accustomed to the trigger break.

Goes without saying.

My CZ 75 is a Pre-B so there's no firing pin block. I lower the hammer many times on a loaded round.over the course of a year. It doesn't pay to be sloppy here. Once down I move the hammer to the safety notch. DA/SA would have been my last choice years ago but now is my favorite. It's safe with the hammer down. It can be brought to use quickly with a DA pull. If there's time you can cock the hammer [again don't be sloppy] for SA fire. What's not to like here? I know it's not for everyone but it suits me just fine.

 

[Mike P Wagner]

Back when the UseNet was still a thing people used to talk about specialized interests, I used to read newsgroups on an odd variety of stuff that I had some interest in: Silent movies, locksmithing, coin collecting, etc.

There was, as far as I could tell, no subject whatsoever that people could NOT get into bitter personal arguments about. Was Charlie Chaplin a Communist? Did he ever really start making a movie called "Life"? Is there such thing as "forensic" locksmithing? Is it proper to give credit to the research on American coins done by a guy who turned out to be a child molester? Nothing is beyond the capability of people to get angry about.

I was younger then, and it was eye-opening for me. Now I have learned to expect it.

When I posted the question, I did not realize that it would stir up so much acromony. But maybe I should have expected that because I remember Usenet days as well.

I thank the people who responded before the pissing contest started - and those who did not play that game once it started. I learned quite a bit, which is what I was interested in when I posed the question.

For my preferences right now, I think that I prefer a safety to a decocker (without a safety) - so the gun I have seems to match my preferences, which is cool.

My sense of myself is that an accident where a finger slipped into the trigger card while I was reholstering a weapon is more likely than my forgetting to put the safety on before reholstering. I’m pretty conscientious, but a bit of a klutz.

At any rate, it mostly a range gun, so I expect to be able to make absolutely sure that the muzzle is down range any time I need to manually decock.

I suspect that when I need to replace this weapon, it will be with a CZ 75 B SA, but that’s a ways into the future.

Thanks.

 

[Snejdarek]

What's not to like here? I know it's not for everyone but it suits me just fine.

Most of the time I carry CZ 75 Compact D. The decocker is a nice thing.

Then I bought the CZ 75 Stainless for range use. But it's a nice gun so I started CCing it too. Decocking manually took some getting used to but once I got there, I don't really see much of an advantage of the decocker.

The only difference is in those situation when I move from off body carry (condition 3) to on body carry (condition 0 DA) after shopping for clothes, etc. while behind wheel in car or in any other position where I am not fully comfortable with handling the gun.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

A) ClickClickD'oh, when you use my name in your post, I think you are shooting at the wrong target. I did not say the things you quote me as saying. Maybe someone else did.

You are completely right and I apologize. .I somehow conflated your name and Stchman while writing the post.

 

[Monac]

You are completely right and I apologize. .I somehow conflated your name and Stchman while writing the post.

Well, to be fair, my name is easier to spell. Thanks!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I may have said all of this before, but I think it bears repeating:

I've seen and heard of many more negilgent discharges that occur while shooters were NOT DECOCKING a DA/SA or SA weapon than I've ever seen or ever heard of happening WHILE decocking..

If you ever shoot at an indoor range, just look at the walls and the ceiling -- those marks weren't caused by decocking "accidents."​

Decocking is something you do WHEN you're finished using the gun, and if the gun doesn't have a decocker, it has a SAFETY -- use it! If you're really done for the day you can 1) remove the magazine and 2) rack the slide, while keeping your finger away from the trigger. A chambered round will be ejected.

If you don't want too UNLOAD the weapon just then, and you're uptight or nervous about decocking manually, just use the SAFETY! Actually unloading or decocking the weapon can then be done later, when you're ready to do it,.

Most of the folks I know who are new to manually decocking a weapon, or who do it infrequently, just put the thumb or a finger from the OFF hand between the hammer and the firing pin while slowly lowering the hammer.