Old Dog
Member
I'm purely a superficial kinda guy, I just prefer the fluted cylinders and think unfluted cylinders don't look right. But that's just me.
It's all just subjective.
It's all just subjective.
why unfluted cylinders?
- Thread starter thunderbyrd
- Start date
Well, they are giving you more steel!
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
The unfluted Cap & Ball cylinder on my Ruger Old Army and the cartridge conversion cylinder on my 1858 Remington.
Yes, of course there is less machining done to the cylinder if it is left unfluted. But with current revolvers it seems to be just a marketing ploy to charge more money.
I like fluted cylinders because it makes it easier to index the cylinder by hand.
Regarding burst cylinders: I have always felt this burst Merwin Hulbert cylinder is a pretty good example of the failure starting at the bolt cut, and then propagating forward and back. Notice the metal is thinnest at the bolt cut.
The unfluted Cap & Ball cylinder on my Ruger Old Army and the cartridge conversion cylinder on my 1858 Remington.
Yes, of course there is less machining done to the cylinder if it is left unfluted. But with current revolvers it seems to be just a marketing ploy to charge more money.
I like fluted cylinders because it makes it easier to index the cylinder by hand.
Regarding burst cylinders: I have always felt this burst Merwin Hulbert cylinder is a pretty good example of the failure starting at the bolt cut, and then propagating forward and back. Notice the metal is thinnest at the bolt cut.
Riomouse911
Member
Ouch!Howdy
The unfluted Cap & Ball cylinder on my Ruger Old Army and the cartridge conversion cylinder on my 1858 Remington.
Yes, of course there is less machining done to the cylinder if it is left unfluted. But with current revolvers it seems to be just a marketing ploy to charge more money.
I like fluted cylinders because it makes it easier to index the cylinder by hand.
Regarding burst cylinders: I have always felt this burst Merwin Hulbert cylinder is a pretty good example of the failure starting at the bolt cut, and then propagating forward and back. Notice the metal is thinnest at the bolt cut.
My only unfluted cylinder revolvers are all Rugers; a 6-shot SRH in .454 Casull, a 5-shot GP-100 .44 Spl., a 6-shot .22WMR cylinder on my Single Six convertible, two Wrangler .22 LR and two Bisley Single Sixes, a.32 and a .22.
The Bisleys have the cylinders engraved, so I suppose the lack of flutes could be considered a cosmetic addition.
The SBH kicks a lot, so the added weight helps. Same for the 3” .44 Spl., it can get spicy with full power loads. The unfluted Single Six .22WMR cylinder is just to tell that and the .22 LR cylinder apart.
These others are pretty much smooth with just the caliber information on them.
The Wranglers are budget guns, so this seems to be a cost savings measure with these guns.
I guess I don’t mind one way or the other. As long as the gun functions properly, they are all good by me.
Stay safe.
UncleEd
Member
And few have noticed that Ruger with the 179- series went
to short or three-quarter length flutes compared to the
cylinders' previous ones. Another mystery for conjecture.
to short or three-quarter length flutes compared to the
cylinders' previous ones. Another mystery for conjecture.
CajunBass
Member
An unflutted cylinder always looks unfinished to me. The main reason I've never even thought about buying a Ruger Wrangler.
Oddly enough, I think nothing of it on the Super Blackhawk or the Ruger Bearcat. It's just the way they are. Why it looks "wrong" on the Wrangler (and other guns), I have no idea.
Oddly enough, I think nothing of it on the Super Blackhawk or the Ruger Bearcat. It's just the way they are. Why it looks "wrong" on the Wrangler (and other guns), I have no idea.
buck460XVR
Member
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- Feb 6, 2007
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- 9,800
.....why not?
Tallball
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,501
Fluted cylinders make a revolver just a little easier to handle, IMHO. Such as when you need to rotate the cylinder a little bit for some reason.
Remington1911
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2022
- Messages
- 1,409
Money, that is it, nothing more nothing less. Now will people try to say otherwise, you bet they will. Faster to make, and that is cheaper to make, one less thing to do.
I read somewhere that in "the old days", putting a barrel in a lathe to make it round was an expensive step to do. So rifles with flat barrels, octagon, was just a cheaper way to do it. Think about it one less step. Now does making it round bring something else to the field, well they say it does, and as no two rifles are EXACTLY alike, just like no two round of ammo, or the conditions they are shot in, who is to say.
But money. Now I have a feeling they can charge more for it as it is different.
And I agree with the other poster, it looks horrid to my eye as well, but to each their own, I have a buddy that looks high and low for them and really likes the smooth look.
I read somewhere that in "the old days", putting a barrel in a lathe to make it round was an expensive step to do. So rifles with flat barrels, octagon, was just a cheaper way to do it. Think about it one less step. Now does making it round bring something else to the field, well they say it does, and as no two rifles are EXACTLY alike, just like no two round of ammo, or the conditions they are shot in, who is to say.
But money. Now I have a feeling they can charge more for it as it is different.
And I agree with the other poster, it looks horrid to my eye as well, but to each their own, I have a buddy that looks high and low for them and really likes the smooth look.
unspellable
Member
What is the finish on that unfluted S&W?
mcb
Member
I am always amazed how much attention and conversation flutes or lack there of generates. Being an engineer I wanted to illustrate my earlier point that flutes are a good thing for those of us shooting a lot of fast double action shooting. It's going to get technical, you've been warned!
This above CAD model is based on a S&W N-frame 44 Magnum cylinder. The outside diameter, length, and chambers are correct. Obviously smaller features like the star/extractor, stop notches, etc have been left out for expediency. The unfluted cylinder on the left weighs .212 lb (3.39 oz), and the fluted cylinder on the right weighs .196 lb (3.13 oz) that is only a ~1/4 oz reduction in weight, or 7.6% decrease. Not very much for the amount of machining at first blush, but as far as the pawl and cylinder stop are concerned the torque required to accelerate and decelerate the cylinder between double action shots is proportional to the mass moment of inertia of the cylinder and that has change a fair bit more.
For a linear system the classic equation F = m a (Force = mass times acceleration) holds true. The force is proportional to the mass and acceleration. For a rotational system that same equation looks like T = I alpha (Torque = mass moment of inertia times angular acceleration) Without going into the complexity of mass moment of inertial and how it is calculated, understand that the farther from the axis of rotation a bit of mass is the greater it contributes to the mass moment of inertia. This relationship is by the radius squared so a given bit of mass that is twice as far from the axis of rotation contributes four times at much to the mass moment of inertia of the whole.
So letting the CAD program do all the nasty math, the mass moment of inertia of the unfluted cylinder is .0874 lb-in^2 but the fluted cylinder is .0767 lb-in^2. So the flutes only reduce the mass by ~7.6% but that results in a 12.2% reduction in mass moment of inertia, since all that mass removed was near the outside diameter (as far from the axis of rotation as possible) of the cylinder. So for a given speed of shooting the flutes are reducing the force on the pawl and cylinder stop by 12.2 % If that is fast double action such as in USPSA or IDPA then after several thousands of rounds that difference can be seen in the amount of wear and tear on those parts and the features they interact with.
-rambling
This above CAD model is based on a S&W N-frame 44 Magnum cylinder. The outside diameter, length, and chambers are correct. Obviously smaller features like the star/extractor, stop notches, etc have been left out for expediency. The unfluted cylinder on the left weighs .212 lb (3.39 oz), and the fluted cylinder on the right weighs .196 lb (3.13 oz) that is only a ~1/4 oz reduction in weight, or 7.6% decrease. Not very much for the amount of machining at first blush, but as far as the pawl and cylinder stop are concerned the torque required to accelerate and decelerate the cylinder between double action shots is proportional to the mass moment of inertia of the cylinder and that has change a fair bit more.
For a linear system the classic equation F = m a (Force = mass times acceleration) holds true. The force is proportional to the mass and acceleration. For a rotational system that same equation looks like T = I alpha (Torque = mass moment of inertia times angular acceleration) Without going into the complexity of mass moment of inertial and how it is calculated, understand that the farther from the axis of rotation a bit of mass is the greater it contributes to the mass moment of inertia. This relationship is by the radius squared so a given bit of mass that is twice as far from the axis of rotation contributes four times at much to the mass moment of inertia of the whole.
So letting the CAD program do all the nasty math, the mass moment of inertia of the unfluted cylinder is .0874 lb-in^2 but the fluted cylinder is .0767 lb-in^2. So the flutes only reduce the mass by ~7.6% but that results in a 12.2% reduction in mass moment of inertia, since all that mass removed was near the outside diameter (as far from the axis of rotation as possible) of the cylinder. So for a given speed of shooting the flutes are reducing the force on the pawl and cylinder stop by 12.2 % If that is fast double action such as in USPSA or IDPA then after several thousands of rounds that difference can be seen in the amount of wear and tear on those parts and the features they interact with.
-rambling
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Dave DeLaurant
Member
Weight savings and style are the reasons that make the most sense. Tradition and taste come into it too -- some revolvers look wrong with or without them, depending. An unfluted 1873 Colt would look all wrong to me, while I'm with Mizar and Tallinar and would prefer an unfluted cylinder on a modern S&W .22 10-shooter.
IMO, one actual, valid reason to flute or not to flute is to help distinguish between chamberings on convertible revolvers with multiple cylinders. That was evidently Ruger's idea with the Single Six.
The aftermarket cylinders for the Russian/Soviet Nagant revolvers in .32 ACP (which I reamed to .32 H&R) came unfluted. That was probably just for economy, but since I shoot them both ways fluted/non is a visual reminder of which ammo I need to bring with me to the range.
IMO, one actual, valid reason to flute or not to flute is to help distinguish between chamberings on convertible revolvers with multiple cylinders. That was evidently Ruger's idea with the Single Six.
The aftermarket cylinders for the Russian/Soviet Nagant revolvers in .32 ACP (which I reamed to .32 H&R) came unfluted. That was probably just for economy, but since I shoot them both ways fluted/non is a visual reminder of which ammo I need to bring with me to the range.
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Riomouse911
Member
All is 100% true, you can’t mess with mass.
Even when you are shooting different bullet weights, which can add much more mass/momentum to the overall cylinder with heavier bullets or reduce it with lighter, the fluted/unfluted cylinder will always have those inherent weight differences.
Thanks for the informative stuff.
Stay safe.
1KPerDay
Member
I remember the first time I saw the Ruger Bearcat when I was a kid and I thought the unfluted cylinder looked wrong. I was genuinely wondering why someone would do that. Engraving just made it worse. But that was my 12 year old sensibilities that had been developed by watching westerns where everyone shot SAAs (even in movies set well before 1873).
Over the years I’ve grown to appreciate both styles and I like both styles. Although a Remington NMA with an octagonal barrel and a fluted conversion cylinder looks wrong to me. And an 1860 with half-fluted cylinder looks wrong to me. But I wouldn’t say no if someone gave me either one.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Originally, who knows? Unfluted cylinders go back A LOT further than 1860's. Here's one from 1606. I think some folks forget this.
The Collier guns of the 1820's were fluted.
If I remember right, all the Paterson Colt guns were unfluted. As were most of the later Hartford percussion and cartridge conversions.
The 1862 Police was a rare exception.
IMHO, flutes became pretty standard with the Colt SAA and S&W Hand Ejectors. Nowadays people just expect a revolver cylinder to be fluted.
Then Ruger came in with their flat-top .44Mag and people complained about the recoil. Ruger responded with a little bit of added weight with an unfluted cylinder and longer steel grip frame. Flutes have zero bearing on strength. The weakest point is the bolt notch, not the outer wall or even the web.
Others followed suit with custom guns for a few reasons. One, it's fairly expensive for a gunsmith to cut flutes. They're not done with an end mill but a specialized cutter only used for flutes. I think it also looks weird to have anything other than six flutes. It has also come to represent a more business-like appearance, as more of a heavy duty hunting sixgun. They're not physically stronger but they do look tougher.
The Collier guns of the 1820's were fluted.
If I remember right, all the Paterson Colt guns were unfluted. As were most of the later Hartford percussion and cartridge conversions.
The 1862 Police was a rare exception.
IMHO, flutes became pretty standard with the Colt SAA and S&W Hand Ejectors. Nowadays people just expect a revolver cylinder to be fluted.
Then Ruger came in with their flat-top .44Mag and people complained about the recoil. Ruger responded with a little bit of added weight with an unfluted cylinder and longer steel grip frame. Flutes have zero bearing on strength. The weakest point is the bolt notch, not the outer wall or even the web.
Others followed suit with custom guns for a few reasons. One, it's fairly expensive for a gunsmith to cut flutes. They're not done with an end mill but a specialized cutter only used for flutes. I think it also looks weird to have anything other than six flutes. It has also come to represent a more business-like appearance, as more of a heavy duty hunting sixgun. They're not physically stronger but they do look tougher.
Agreed, except they don't use ball end mills. They use a specialized cutter that isn't used for any other purpose. Which adds to the expense of the operation. You can buy end mills at Brownells but they probably make their fluting cutters. Similar to the cutter Jack had to make to do this #1 style front sight.
doubleh
Member
You know what is said about opinions don't you?
I like unfluted cylinders because I use paste wax as a protective agent on all my guns and it's much easier to wax an unfluted compared to a fluted cylinger. Well, maybe just a little bit. I also don't find them ugly at all, more kind of business like than fluted ones.
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doubleh
Member
Originally, who knows? Unfluted cylinders go back A LOT further than 1860's. Here's one from 1606. I think some folks forget this.
The Collier guns of the 1820's were fluted.
If I remember right, all the Paterson Colt guns were unfluted. As were most of the later Hartford percussion and cartridge conversions.
The 1862 Police was a rare exception.
IMHO, flutes became pretty standard with the Colt SAA and S&W Hand Ejectors. Nowadays people just expect a revolver cylinder to be fluted.
Then Ruger came in with their flat-top .44Mag and people complained about the recoil. Ruger responded with a little bit of added weight with an unfluted cylinder and longer steel grip frame. Flutes have zero bearing on strength. The weakest point is the bolt notch, not the outer wall or even the web.
Others followed suit with custom guns for a few reasons. One, it's fairly expensive for a gunsmith to cut flutes. They're not done with an end mill but a specialized cutter only used for flutes. I think it also looks weird to have anything other than six flutes. It has also come to represent a more business-like appearance, as more of a heavy duty hunting sixgun. They're not physically stronger but they do look tougher.
Agreed, except they don't use ball end mills. They use a specialized cutter that isn't used for any other purpose. Which adds to the expense of the operation. You can buy end mills at Brownells but they probably make their fluting cutters. Similar to the cutter Jack had to make to do this #1 style front sight.
Some nice hardware pictured.
My introduction to the 44 magnum was the standard Blackhawk. It was one a shooting buddy purchased at a pawn show and had been pimped out with gold plated cylinder flutes, hammer, trigger, and imitation mother of pearl grips. Ugh. We both shot one cylinder of rounds. My middle finger looked like someone had taken a ballpeen hammer to it and it's recoil was enough to pop a chunk out of one of the fake pearl grips. That did it for me and 44 mag until the SBH arrived.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Yeah, I really don't like the XR3 grip frame for heavy loads. The Dragoon works pretty well but my favorite is the Bisley.Some nice hardware pictured.
My introduction to the 44 magnum was the standard Blackhawk. It was one a shooting buddy purchased at a pawn show and had been pimped out with gold plated cylinder flutes, hammer, trigger, and imitation mother of pearl grips. Ugh. We both shot one cylinder of rounds. My middle finger looked like someone had taken a ballpeen hammer to it and it's recoil was enough to pop a chunk out of one of the fake pearl grips. That did it for me and 44 mag until the SBH arrived.
Riomouse911
Member
SterlingBullet
Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 298
Perhaps fluted cylinders offer a tactical advantage; when it is raining a fluted cylinder offers a better grip. Or if your hands are slick from field dressing, the flutes help you turn the cylinder.
On a similar note, what do you think about the engraved lines inside the flutes on some revolvers? Any purpose to them?
On a similar note, what do you think about the engraved lines inside the flutes on some revolvers? Any purpose to them?
Mauser lover
Member
You could do it with one of these:
if you had a (manual) horizontal mill. It’s not all that specialized, I didn’t realize it wasn’t an equal radius in both dimensions until I started looking. I’m thinking that since everyone is using CNC, ball-nose end mills might still be more economic. Except that you can CNC a horizontal mill too. Does anyone who can tell the difference have a modern (recently produced) revolver? I don’t.
Pat Riot
Member
That right there is the only time or reason I like unfluted vs fluted cylinders.
I like my cylinders fluted and I don’t like spending money on less work.
