Why We Should All Have Pumpguns (101)....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Oct 14, 2004.

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  1. dave3006

    dave3006 member

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    I'll second Zaks posts. In the 5 shotgun classes I have taken, I have seen numerous short shuck malfunctions by student and instructor alike under pressure.

    Under pressure is the key word. Under pressure, good trained people screw up. None of us are perfect. The Benelli M1S90 is more reliable under stress in the real world in my experience.

    Oh, in every shoot off I have participated in, I am almost twice as fast as every 870. Not even close.
     
  2. BigG

    BigG Member

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    Sounds like an 870 Infomercial

    I think a pump is more cost effective than an auto and that is enough to sway a lot of people. I have a Model 97 Win pump and a Beretta auto as welll as a O/U Browning so I can multitask. :D
     
  3. Duke of Lawnchair

    Duke of Lawnchair Member

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    LOL
     
  4. sm

    sm member

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    I have my druthers....

    I still contend training is a BIG Factor. NO matter the platform. Jerry M shoots a revolver better and faster than folks with semi's.

    BA/ UU/ R is a big reason why.

    Same applies to pressures on various uses for the shotgun. Folks get buck fever , and flat forget to take off safety - on any SG platform , even on the single shot, they forget to cock the hammer.

    I have shot pumps and semis with the safeties removed on purpose. Don't fuss, perfectly safe and allowed on the ranges. We advised the Ref, RO and SO just as one would using release triggers...

    Like Al trying to pump a 1100, or folks trying to pump my SX1, I have by habit tried to "snick" a non- existent safety on one of these guns without a safety when I have bird hunted with one of these guns.

    If you ever see me shoot a Revolver, you will see I "snick" off the non- existent safety as well ....1911s and training causes that.

    I have done the "sand test" and other stuff with handguns. I have also performed the sand test with my SX1...yep it ran. I have run that gun in the mud, snow, sand, dirt....against other shooters when I partcipated in some events.

    I have done the same with pump guns. I take this stuff very serious - I want to know what will work in the real world.

    Some folks get all a flutter when I "dunk and swish" the mud out of a model 97, model 12, Ithaca 37, 1300, 870....even a SX1.

    "Not gonna stick my [ enter brand name here] in the creek, lake, resevior ..."

    Fine - that is their choice...

    For ME as the song says I play for keeps or I might not make it back

    I like a variety of platforms, I have my reasons , I have my druthers.

    For defense I prefer to load slugs only . I have been know to load 11/16 oz for upland hunting , been know to load up a mild 3/4 oz load in 12 ga for a new shooter, especially a petite lady or tyro .

    I ruined one 870 bbl once upon a time in a training deal. The name of the game was to survive, I used the muzzle against the steel plate to "defend myself".

    Not a game, but training for real life . The trainer wanted to see what I would do, how I would adapt....he never thought , with no other choices allowed, I would actually " attack the steel that hard". Well ...you do what you gotta do - so I did.

    I busted a set of wood stocks on a 1911 in similar fashion as well.

    Maybe you trap fellows are correct . Us Skeet shooters are plum loco....I mean we do stand out in the middle with targets coming at us.

    :D

    Any tool or piece of equipment is only as good as the Operator.
     
  5. BigG

    BigG Member

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    :uhoh: I would get untrained if I started going that wrong. :uhoh:
     
  6. Nippy

    Nippy Member

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    SM

    Do tell us more of your training episodes. That was quite interesting
     
  7. kudu
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    kudu Moderator Staff Member

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    Now you did it, :D you'll get him started. :uhoh:


    :neener:
     
  8. Nippy

    Nippy Member

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    :what:

    and what is this sand test?
     
  9. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Thanks, folks. Another coupla things....

    I wonder just how different my life would have been if Pop had gifted me with an 11-48 autoloader in 1959 instead of that field grade 870 goose whacker.

    Re autos for games rather than pumps, possibly Zak and Dave are correct.It's not my experience, but I'm out of that loop now. I do note that when it's for real and things may get dangerous, pumps are the weapons of choice for dang near everyone. And while I make no claim of knowing all the professionals in the field, those that I do know have well worn and effective pumpguns.

    And, in dusty, sandy conditions(Like say, Baghdad) I opine that pumps would keep working well after autos stop. I bet our troops there will have some input when they get back.

    And, I didn't start this thread just to dump on anyone's choice. If it's your butt on the line, you have the right to pick your equipment. I'm just explaining why I choose as I do.
     
  10. Larry Ashcraft

    Larry Ashcraft Moderator Staff Member

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    One thing not mentioned is transitioning between autos and pumps. It didn't work for me, but I only hunt with a shotgun so I don't shoot nearly as much as some of you do.

    I grew up with pumps, J.C. Higgins, Rem. Model 10, Ithaca 37. Then I bought a Mohawk 48 with a modified choke and hunted with it for a few years. It worked well on upland game but left a little to be desired for waterfowl. Instead of spending $60 for a new barrel, I bought an Ithaca 37 in full choke for $100.

    It didn't work. I was either trying to yank the forend off of the Remington, or simply keep pulling the trigger on the Ithaca. Couldn't remember which gun I had.

    I finally sold the Ithaca, let my son use the Remington, and bought a Citori.
     
  11. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Love my Auto 5 and Model 11 scatterguns.

    But for serious social work, the 870 sits next to my nightstand. ;)
     
  12. sm

    sm member

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    OT

    If Dave and other mods will allow – I will address the questions if I may.

    I was born you might say in a environment that BGs wanted what we had access to. When I born in ’55; awaiting my arrival home was a loaded .22 revolver, I learned to shoot with that revolver. I remember “helping†my grandmother shoot that High Standard Sentinel at age 3 . At age 6 I shot my first center-fire handgun , a Gov’t 1911 in .45 ACP. "Gunny" at the NG taught me.

    Shotguns and Rifles came very very soon afterwards.

    My mentors had served in Conflicts, in various branches of the Military. Firearms and Firearm safety were part of what a family and circle of friends taught, and practiced. Firearms could be purchased by filing out a postcard, and paying COD when the postman delivered it to one’s door.

    No pieces of paper giving permission to carry a handgun, we all did it, personal responsibility for one’s self and family. Men, women and kids, made no nevermind, no big deal to see a gun in purse, on a man’s hip, a kid walking down the street or riding a bike. Vehicles, be it the back seat or gun rack…and yes , the guns were always loaded.

    In the home...damn skippy the guns were loaded and handy, even with us all kids.

    To paraphrase Mark Twain: Nothing more dangerous than an unloaded gun.

    Now I had Folks that served in Korea, Vietnam and some could not tell me where they had served or what they had done, teach me. Teach me to SURVIVE at all costs.

    Repetition becomes faith – faith becomes habit.

    I made a decision at a very very young age to stay with a few platforms, as taught and suggested. I made MY decision based on gun fit to me, what I could manipulate under stress and get quick accurate hits. I have stayed with these, these being the 1911, the BHP and S&W revolver – especially the K frames.

    My choices on Shotguns and Rifles are based on the same thought and training process.

    I refuse to own a DA/ SA, I refuse to own a slide mounted safety on a handgun. I " finally " accepted the DAO...it is a revolver with a magazine , and yeah, I 'snick" off the non- existent safety on it too. Simple Green and Windex bottles have a staight finger off trigger ...and before getting horizontal with target ....I snick them off too...

    When my elders and mentors whom had survived, taught me , from real life experiences – I paid real close attention.

    For instance , when I draw a handgun , by habit I come to horizontal to target – the safety is snicked off a 1911 or BHP. This same repetitive motion on a K frame revolver has NO ill effect on the K frame and the ability for me to hit target. I shoot Semi’s and Revolvers the same way, it is called “high thumbs†today.

    When a Helicopter pilot and crew is downed in SE Asia and Charlie is coming to get ‘em, hurt , bloody and praying for the Calvary ( literally ) to save their bacon….A Government Model, a Model 66 and a Model 19 all “operate the same†. The man with the injured right hand , from training with his weak hand , did not miss a beat snicking off that safety with an index finger….they didn’t issue ambi-safeties.

    The Ithaca 37 and Model 12 kept tossing slugs , even with the mud and debris from the Rice Paddy. A Leather Handled K-Bar will stop Charlie at contact distance…and still open the C rations later….damn P 38’s …never around when you need one.

    I took up skeet to be a better bird hunter. I enjoyed the competition, I have a competitive nature. I had fun at that GAME but I took it very serious, sometimes too much. 16 practice rounds in one day, 25K rds of 12ga alone in one year- for many years , for example.

    My elders, mentors, said that it most likely won’t be sunshine and 70* when the elephant comes. So that means me and the firearms most likely will be subjected to elements. One has to KNOW the person and the firearm will work.

    You pour sand down a 1911 and shoot it. Same with a long gun , in this case a shotgun. You toss your sidearm and shotgun in mud puddle and have it stepped on, you have to wade or swim a body of water and shoot.

    My mentors didn’t play games with me. “ Train for the worst and hope for the best, and more important train to NOT get in the situation in the first place".

    Only rules – the 4 rules of safety. I may have my gun ( s) taken away and loaded for me. That target was trying to kill me, I had to survive. My gun may not have been loaded, the mags may have dummy rounds….

    They may “tether†me to make me fall and stumble by pulling on the rope( s) They may throw sticks and tennis balls at me, they may shoot blanks all around me, they may bind my arm, or leg to simulate a injury…. It sucks to have tether tied to a sling and have it yanked out of one's hands to simulate getting caught on something...., gun ( a 1300) survived that fall okay. 1300s being used as a club will break the stock at the wrist tho'....oh well , I "survived"....gun stocks can be replaces and finishes - refinished better than my body .....

    Whatcha gonna do to survive Steve?

    Dave mentioned “ being out of the loopâ€

    I have participated in 2 and 3 gun events I have partcipated in IDPA an IPSC – I choose to not continue to participate in IDPA, IPSC, 3 gun for a reason. I have played games, skeet, 5 stand sporting clays and live pigeon. I made friends, I had fun, I was good enough to win.

    Back to training-

    We will start not knowing what the stage is. I have been led to the starting area blindfolded, my guns loaded for me. At the sound of a blank pistol, I turn strong side with shotgun in hand and scan…and have a target coming at me, like a Tueller Drill…I cannot make it to cover, I have to shoot. Yes you can engage a target from low ready with a shotgun and get 3 hits in the time it takes that target to reach you from 21 steps. I've done it many times with a pump. I have done it with a Semi , SX1, 1100, Beretta 303 for example as well.

    I can do it with a model 94 in 30 -30 as well.

    We do this with single shots, O/U and SxS as well...I can get a single shot off from a single, two for sure from a double gun ...and not too shabby on getting two more stuffed in the chambers like on a Safari as I haul butt for cover...the SxS is far more easier for me btw to reload like this.

    Another “stage†( if you will) I have been handed a “baby†and in the processes of trying to unlock the vehicle, I am fired at….Well unlike the groceries , I can’t very well drop the baby now can I ? You better have a weak side BUG, because most likely that baby is gonna be placed in your strong side arm.

    I don’t expect folks to understand , or agree. It might perhaps explain the reason why I choose the platforms I do. Why I have punched a steel target with my shotgun muzzle and ruined it, why I broke stocks on a 1911, not allowed to have a BUG, or a knife and only 1 rd loaded in the mag for me, why I busted the stocks on a K frame the same way…

    Explains why the “old farm†truck had banged up ( moreso) bumpers from “moving†the vehicles fore and aft to get away at a "stoplight"….or the deep gash on a door from the vehicle trying to box me in “ a parking spotâ€. I got out of there - fast!

    Yep – I shot the windows out of a “vehicle†…I saw no need to expose myself anymore than needed to get a shot(s) off….shortest distance is a straight line…it is said. Do you know what vehicle glass does when slugs are fired through them at contact distance? I do. Ever fired your shotgun under a "vehicle" ....how about your handguns for CCW?

    Someday I will perhaps have the money to attend a Awerbuck Class. Heck- I’d like to have the money to afford some of his books.

    Until I can be taught – Correctly – I guess I’ll continue to be wrong.

    kudu - warned you folks.

    :)
     
  13. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight Member

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    One more reason...

    Aesthetics.

    IM001980.gif
     
  14. kudu
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    kudu Moderator Staff Member

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    :banghead:

    See, I warned you all about sm. :neener:











    :D

    Seriously though, good post sm. ;)
     
  15. PJR

    PJR Member

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    It seems to me that sometimes the point in these threads gets lost. It's not about which gun is better -- pump or semi -- but about understanding the pluses and minuses of a certain type.

    There's no free lunch. If you own a pump gun you get simplicity, reliability in extreme conditions or when neglected, affordability and ability to use the full spectrum of ammunition. The price you pay is a requirement to put the time in to learn the system until it is at least second nature if not instinctive.

    With a semi-auto you give up some of the pump gun's benefits in return for a system that is less dependent on the ability of the operator. If you are not going to shoot a pump gun often but can keep a gun clean and properly lubricated and don't need to have the ability to shoot less-lethal ammunition then a semi-auto is a better choice.

    Both systems have their place and each has advantages and drawbacks. Although I shoot mostly o/u, my 870 gets to the range at least once a month for clays, paper targets and steel. I love my target shotguns but when something growls near the horse barn in the dead of night, it's my synthetic 870 that gets the nod.

    I use the 870 because I am confident in the gun and my ability to use it. Were I not a regular shooter or a hunter who went out for ducks maybe once or twice a year my choice would be a semi-auto. If the approach is clean it, load it and leave it then I'd want a Benelli with full power ammunition.

    Whether to choose a pump or semi depends who is asking the question and how the question is being answered.

    Paul
     
  16. Little Loudmouth

    Little Loudmouth Member

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    I hear ya Dave! I love my J.C. pump. I like the reliability and design. Plus, who can resist that "cha-chik" sound of the action?
     
  17. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    "There's no free lunch, If you own a pump gun you get simplicity,reliability in extreme conditions or when neglected,affordability and the ability to use the full spectrum of ammunition"...

    Amen, Paul.

    "The price you pay.....". Expertise is a given for success with any weapon system.

    I'm no bigot. I like all shotguns, more or less. I just happen to think that pumpguns cover a lot of territory, providing fun, food and protection for a pittance of money and a moderate investment in time. Once any shotgunner has a few pumpguns, he/she can diversify and I'll not cavil.

    White Knight,esthetics are totally subjective. I happen to think your shotgun's pretty. So are most of mine, though Frankenstein's beauty takes time to appreciate. Others may disagree.

    LLM, thanks. Try to wear that JC out, I dare ya....
     
  18. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Steve ..... Kudu was right!! - but .... from me too - thanks. Enjoyed that.:)
     
  19. Mulliga

    Mulliga Member

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    Let's be frank, here. If the pump action were the be-all and end-all of action types, wouldn't there be a heckuva lot more pump action rifles? :D

    A semi is faster for the average shooter. I shoot skeet and trap all the time, and even with the fastest shucking I can manage, Bob's Stoeger 2000 still brings up that second round faster than I can. Ditto for O/U and SxS shotguns.

    Some people may be able to pull off Ed McGivern-type speed with their pump actions, but we aren't all Ed McGivern, and thus just as many of us don't cary SA revolvers for defense, many people prefer the speed of a semi, O/U, or SxS.

    Having to work the action forcefully for reliable operation can also be a liability if one of your hands/arms is hurt. While this scenario may be a bit unlikely, so is the scenario where you don't have access to appropriate loads for cycling a semi (the loads Zak mentioned can be found in practically any Wally World, skeet clubhouse, or gun shop).

    I'm a proud owner of an 870 Express 20 gauge, and proud, soon-to-be owner of an 870 Express Turkey 12 gauge. MY personal choice is a pump action for all the fine reasons listed in the thread - but I concur with Zak Smith in that the pump ain't a perfect fit for everyone.
     
  20. The_Antibubba

    The_Antibubba Member

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    Simple is good

    I like sm's term of "few platforms", and i think I've less consciously done the same. I'm in the process of purchasing my first shotgun-a Mossberg 500A-for $99 used. A pump is simply more affordable, especially used, and more likely to be in good shape, too. I've got a couple Mosin/Nagant rifles-Russian-tough bolt actions. And a revolver. And a lever action. Simple stuff.

    I'd like to know how to fix and maintain my own weapons, and since I'll NEVER be a gunsmith, then KISS is the the plan. I'd hate to have to repair a gas gun on my own, but a pump I could maybe learn.
     
  21. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Mulliga, head for the woods in PA on opening day and see how many pump rifles you run across. Actually, the pump design doesn't do that well with high pressure ammo.A pump rifle in 300 Mag overbuilt to the same degree as an 870 would weight 10 lbs sans scope and ammo.

    Ed McGivern did much of his work with S&W double actions.

    Appropriate loads for cycling a semi may be more than we need at times. I busted plenty of clays yesterday with 7/8 and 1 oz loads. I even got to touch one off in a fairly new Benelli Super Sport. Didn't eject, though the clay busted hard. BTW, I like the Benelli.

    I don't think pumps are perfect for everyone and everything. I do think they have a lot to offer.

    For the obtuse, the title of the thread was written with my tongue firmly inserted in my cheek.

    AntiB, since few things ever go wrong with pumps, you may not get much chance to learn.

    I like the few platform approach myself.
     
  22. VG

    VG Member

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    If that's the case, question anything else they told you. Because no one in the military who had a real-world clandestine job didn't also have a cover story -which is always true and easily verified. So if they can't tell you what they did - implying it was classified - it's usually the sign of a poser or wannabe.
     
  23. BigG

    BigG Member

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    I think we got Chuck Taylor incognito on the board.
     
  24. sm

    sm member

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    That comment was not appreciated.

    Perhaps they chose to not re-live the hell they had been exposed to, Perhaps with the attitude of being spit on and called baby killers when they returned from 'Nam. Who Knows, some stuff is personal and not my business.

    I know I learned some years laters some worked what they did, at the time they did not reveal what they did.

    Just like some friends whom kids served in Desert Storm, did not know where their kids were at times. My Cousin, does not know where exactly his two boys are in the Conflicts now. One does work Intelligence , he has no idea 'where' right ths minute.

    We have folks that work[ed] Intelligence, as UC in LEO, or Exceutive Protection and they don't go around advertising.

    NO disrespect to our own Sean Smith,Pat Rogers, and others on this board- but I don't recall them sharing what all they did, what all they do either.
     
  25. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    SM,

    Agreed. I too know people who are most definitely special ops/intel people who cannot talk about what they do or where they do it. They do have the bullet holes and scars though, tend to be so fit it makes me sick and frequently come back with the most wonderful exotic gifts for their wives. Recently Persian rugs as an example. Mmmmmm.

    I have met lots of gunshop commando's but I have met people who are most definitely the real deal and as far as I am concerend they are usually pretty easy to differentiate.

    Chris

    Ohh yeah. I "heart" my Marine Magnum. Just to keep things on topic. What a spectacular gun.

    [​IMG]
     
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