Why We Should All Have Pumpguns (101)....

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cslinger,

What's the wood stock one , at the very top, ? :)

Yes those MM are great guns. They don't seem to get the recognition they deserve it seems. Granted - I live in AR, folks do use on / around the rivers, lakes and such. Don't get used for Doves, Duck Hunting much tho':p

I know from experience the MM won't float - don't matter if the word "Marine" is in the name. :uhoh: "ker-plunk" :p

Seems to me Ala Dan " kinda" likes his too. :p
 
The wood stocked shotty above them is an old Winchester Ranger, 140 I believe, that I got for a song at a flee market. It is a 20 gauge, pretty nice semi-auto. Would make a decent bird gun I would think.

The picture was only the evil shotguns. I have a thing for evil shotguns. Although a Beretta AL391 is on my list. Love those things.

The sad thing is, some idiot, somewhere, probably thought their Marine Magnum or Mossberg Marine could actually float. You know those people are out there. :D
 
Well , there was a beaver dam, some stuff that blows stuff up, a johnboat that would not cooperate, hip boots , snakes and a buddy that was "not helping".

I have to admit the MM cleaned up quicker than I did .

Hip boots tend to get stuck in muddy bottoms...yeah like I was really gonna be able to swim with 'em on.

If there is a bar ditch, I will find it. If there is deeper "spot" I'll find it....won't me take long either...and sometimes , I have to "re-check" ....just to make sure and all.

:)
 
mulliga

although the pump may not be the "be all/end all" of action types, as far as rifles are concerned, bolts and levers are still manually cycled actions.
a pump just happens to be the manual action of choice on a repeater for shotguns. there are alot of guys out there who would prefer a bolt or lever for an all around rifle due to simplicity. myself included.

as for speed of follow up shots, i'll leave that argument to the guys that may be able to produce the results. i can see a semi's advantage in this area, especially in a rifle. although i really like levers.

i think i'd rather have to rack the slide one-handed if injured than try and clear a jam.

and for the dreaded SHTF situation, i want a 12 gauge that can fire any ammo i can get my hands on.


just my thoughts


brian
 
GREAT WRITE THERE DAVE!

Once you own Browning semi auto's, the argument for pumps can easily fall on deaf ears. About the only attractive part of the argument besides using a pump for HD and specialized hunting applications, is price. :)
 
Thanks, Dave and all. Good thread.

Been thinking about history lately, due to a couple of questions from other places, and it strikes me that a whole lot of modern folk don't realize just how good we got it these days by comparison. One of the questions prompted me to dig out my 1996 copy of the 1994 West Point tape series on the history of small arms by then- MAJ Art Alphin (later of A-Squared) and watch most of the 6 hours again for review. (Gotta get that on DVD, the VHS ain't gonna last...)

One of the interesting phrases that has survived into modern abuse is "heavily armed." Think about that a bit. Not too many dozens of years ago, that meant pretty much exactly what it said. A man who might need to fire several shots in quick succession pretty much had to have a separate (single shot) firearm for each of those shots. I remember reading descriptions of early Western travelers being laden with hardware, to include substantial knives as well. Those were the days of muzzle loading flintlocks, complicated and often unreliable.

But progress was made.

Through a long series of inventions and improvements to inventions we came to have self contained reliable cartridges. We came to have reliable repeating firearms designs to use them in. We should all be so deeply grateful to the long line of inventors who brought us to where we are.

A singularly American preference developed around the pump shotgun. That could not have happened without standardized, reliable ammunition to feed the guns and without dependable designs to utilize the ammunition. When those two factors came together the results were absolutely revolutionary and changed the firearms world forever. These new shooting machines could thunder repeatedly at game animals, interloping predators, or various forms of bandits before reloading was called for. Very quickly enterprising law dogs and market hunters were fitting extended magazines, some holding up to ten or eleven rounds.

The American slide action tubular magazine fed repeating shotgun was birthed in 1882 with the design introduced by Sylvester Roper and Christopher Spencer (of repeating rifle fame). John Browning's 1890 patent for a slide action shotgun appeared as the Model 1893 and soon evolved into the legendary Winchester Model 1897. Widespread adoption by police, security companies and the military fed the M97's growing popularity. Winchester's Model 12 carried on and built on that line for the New Haven company. The later Model 1200/1300 saw military and police use as well as considerable civilian popularity.

Meanwhile Remington's Model 10 (a John D. Pederson design much like the Ithaca Model 37) and the later Browning- designed Model 17 (even more closely related to the later M37) founded the lineage that would lead on through the Model 31 until 1950 saw the introduction of the now- famous Model 870.

Ithaca Gun Co. had concentrated on their well known SXS guns from their inception in 1880 until 1937. The fast- growing popularity of repeaters cut heavily into the double gun market, however, and Ithaca began to cast about for a reliable repeater design. By the mid-1930s Browning's patent for a closed sided, bottom ejecting repeater was a front runner, and Remington had stopped manufacturing their Model 17- and more importantly, the patents had expired. Thus no one objected when Ithaca picked up the basic design and firther refined it to make a lighter gun, first marketed in 1937 as the Featherlight. It was an immediate commercial success and later a military and law enforcement favorite as well.

Numerous others ventured into the slide action market- Stevens, Savage, High Standard, Smith and Wesson and others. The best known of the later arrivals was Mossberg, introducing their Model 500 in 1961.

Pump guns pretty much domnated the 20th Century in the United States. They were quite effective, reasonably inexpensive, and few Americans cared about or could afford the panache of a best grade double gun. Americans were a nation of working people who had leisure time to pursue their choice of sports, and many of them liked to go shooting. For shotguns, the working man's choice was most often the pump.

It still is...

lpl/nc
 
Marshall, at one point in time I was bequeathed a Remington 11 autoloader, the domestic sibling of the A-5. It failed to pick up a shell every 10 times or so. My smith advised me it's endemic to the design.

Pumps are super reliable. Autos are not, though new ones are much better than those of old.

Pumps eat anything, autos have a narrower band of ammo power.

Lee, thanks for the overview. As far as equipment goes, these are The Good Old Days...
 
Dave, I've been shooting semi-auto shotguns since I was 11yrs old, 34 yrs ago. From multiple A-5's to Golds, from 1100's to 11-87's to Mowhawk 48's and a couple of others in between. To this very day I have had exactly one (1) shell jam on me and that was my fault for changing the guns set up to the ammo I was shooting. That's a pretty good record of reliability to me. Maybe you just had a bum gun and a smith that was making you feel good. Or, I just have all good guns while all others are problems, which I tend to doubt.

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing the benefits of a pump gun, I am pointing out that quality semi-auto's are not near the problem that some make them out to be. Matter of fact, I bet my life on mine every night and have no reason to believe I am taking unnecessary chances with mine based on their history of use. That's all. :D

PS I will admit that you have to keep them clean and oiled, they're not as reliable as pumps when extremely dirty and neglected.
 
Early in our development work it was clear that this new round would hardly cycle semi-automatics while also having difficulties in feeding some pump action shotguns flawlessly. This lead us to consider the development of a weapons system which would include a new shotgun (more about this later) especially designed for the MINISHELL. In the meantime, after some testing we realized that the WINCHESTERâ„¢ 1300 series cycle MINISHELLS flawlessly (12 rds in an 18" bbl "Defender"); MOSSBERGSâ„¢ and REMINGTONSâ„¢ needed a minor modification in their elevators to produce similar results.

Aguilla
 
WOW- lots of pumpgun stuff.

I never liked carrying a pump as a field gun it never felt right, I would carry my firearm in 1 hand around the action ahead of the trigger guard .This was done going in or out of the woods going to and from a duck blind or though the coverts and up to the point.

the first gun I used was an auto and this type of carry felt good, and latter I switched to a SXS it still worked fine. But when I first tried my sweet little 16ga wingmaster on a woodcock hunt, I had to try something else to carry it. I found that a pump with a sling over the shoulder was fine for a deer gun but I never could get used to field carring a pump.
 
To this very day I have had exactly one (1) shell jam on me and that was my fault for changing the guns set up to the ammo I was shooting.

A pump will shoot different shells interchangably, where an auto has to have a certain flavor to be reliable in most cases. I started out with autos and still love to shoot them, more so than a pump gun, but if the gun is not set up for what you have it is not reliable.
 
Nippy, to this date it's the only auto I've owned and shot. Have taken into custody an 1100 belonging to a friend, shot it some before he got it back.

With all these 870s, I'm not needing much more in the way of repeaters.

Marshall, I wish you well. I'll stay with my 870s, which take more ammo variations and work well dirty, though they hardly ever are. To each his/her own...

Again lest I be misread, the title was written with tongue in cheek. A pump is a valuable member of a shotgun battery or the start of one, but not the only way to get there.

In fact, there's been a number of non pumps in my past, and I liked most of them.
 
Mmmmm........ I just picked up a used Ithaca Featherweight 16 with the corncob fore end...........and I'm an auto shotgun guy! Yow, does it feel sweet!
 
How reliable do your pumps run with the Aguila Mini-Shells?

I can answer that for you.

Pumps are not reliable (other than win1300) when it comes to Minishells. You may have to restrict yourself and stay with the flavors that work in your 870.


The Winchester 1300.. one gun to rule them alllll muwahahahaa:evil:
 
You may have to restrict yourself and stay with the flavors that work in your 870.

Well, I guess it'll just HAVE to be common sense to use ammunition that works in your shotgun, wouldn't it? Designers do have design constraints.


BTW, rock on with the win1300!!! Excellent pump gun and the build quality of everyone of them that I've seen is leaps and bounds above it's competition.
 
Agreed. I too know people who are most definitely special ops/intel people who cannot talk about what they do or where they do it. They do have the bullet holes and scars though, tend to be so fit it makes me sick and frequently come back with the most wonderful exotic gifts for their wives. Recently Persian rugs as an example. Mmmmmm.
An SF soldier can't tell you where they've been or what they were doing. But last time I checked even being in a Special Forces Group was not classified and the fact that they wear distinctive berets, unit patches and beret flashes reflects this.

Anybody should be able to tell you what exactly what unit they were in, and when. There are now websites specifically to determine if the claimed Paratrooper, Ranger, SEAL or Special Forces soldier is the real McCoy or a poser. My observation is that the posers outnumber the real guys easily 10:1. One sure sign of a poser is that when you start asking them details about what unit they were in, and when, they cite operational security or secrecy laws.

More in line with this thread, I never saw a shotgun anywhere but in the hands of an MP when I was in the army. But they have become more common again for use in door breaching, and many infantry platoons are now issued one for that purpose. The new ones seem to be Benellis but there are plenty of older weapons as well, Mossberg pumps and others.
You never can tell what a unit arms room will have lying around.
 
Now that I'm home and not at the office, maybe this will help.

The elevator is the little metal bar that catches the round to be subsequently fed to the ramp and chambered. It needs to be lengthened and widened. This modification will not prevent you from firing regular size shot shells.

Any competent gunsmith should be able to perform the modification to the elevator.
 
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