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WI gunowners: a rant

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Monkeyleg, Dec 29, 2003.

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  1. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

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    This is just a thread to vent a bit. AndrewWalkowiak, mpthole, Hunter Rose and others may soon chime in with their own comments.

    For two (or is it three?) years now, we've been doing the gun show circuit, getting people to call or write their legislators on the CCW bill. The past three months have been really intense, with multiple shows going on over the same weekends. Volunteers are starting to get burned out.

    Why?

    The sheer idiocy. It's staggering. It's beyond belief. In fact, I'm absolutely amazed that some people can somehow make it through life without harming themselves.

    Consider:

    1. We're trying to get people to address postcards to their legislators. Do you have any idea how many people have no idea how to address a postcard or envelope? When I drop off the cards at the post office, I give the stack a cursory look to see which legislators are going to get the most. Invariably, a good number of people addressed cards to themselves. I mail them anyway. Right now they're probably still wondering who's forging their handwriting and sending them suspicious mail.

    2. This point is sad: the number of people who can't read or write. That shouldn't be part of a "rant" thread, but I'm astounded by how many completely illiterate people are out there. Actually, I'm amazed that perhaps 25% or more of the people we encounter can't spell the word "concealed."

    3. The laziness is incredible. It takes just two minutes to address a postcard, yet people will use any excuse not to. "Oh, I already do all of that." All of what? "Write letters and all." To whom? "The President, Senator Kohl, all those guys." This is state, not federal. "Naw, I already do all that." I've had people spend ten minutes telling me why they can't take time to address a postcard.

    4. This past weekend I had a couple of guys in their early twenties at the table, trying to get them to address a postcard. One was very reluctant. "Won't we get on some kind of list?" he asked. I told him that he was on a list if his name was in the phonebook, at least when it comes to politicians. He was scared to contact his legislator. I tried to find out if he voted, but he was too paranoid to tell me.

    5. Had a guy tell me that we don't need permits, that's what the 2nd Amendment is for. Fine, I said, but we're talking reality, and the reality is permits first, Vermont-style later. Then he expressed some reservations about permits. What about people with short tempers, or those who are drunk, he asked. I told him that he was contradicting himself, a point that escaped him.

    6. The deer hunters. Need I say more? Someday there's going to be legislation that affects only hunters, and I'm going to sit back and laugh my skinny white butt off watching them try to organize against it.

    7. The crazies. You know them right off the bat when you see them. You can tell by the look in their eyes or something unusual about the way they dress. And they'll jawbone you for an hour about the most ridiculous conspiracies--which, of course, they have absolute proof of--but then won't address a postcard.

    8. The cheapskates. We tell people there's no obligation to contribute, but the postcards, literature and table cost us a lot of money. They look at the 25-cent postcard and throw in exactly 25 cents. Well, at least they addressed a card...

    9. The LEO's. This isn't meant to bash cops, but my blood boils when somebody at a show says, "I already got my permit," and shows me his badge. Don't they care about their wives?

    10. The I-don't-need-one, so-neither-do-you crowd. If anyone wonders how the '94 Black Rifle ban got passed, just talk to these folks.

    Winston Churchill had it right when he said that the best argument against democracy was a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    Ok, I feel better now. ;)
     
  2. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Dick,
    If we could get 10% of the population to care about anything more then whatever their immediate (and I mean right that minute) goal was we would live in a different world. No one will care until it affects them directly. By then it's usually too late....

    Jeff

    PS hang in there my friend...if it wasn't for guys like you I wouldn't be able to point to all the surrounding states when we start the fight in earnest down here.
     
  3. Barbara

    Barbara Member

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    I feel for you, but keep on keeping on, ok? You're doing a good thing. :)
     
  4. artjs

    artjs Member

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    On #7, The Crazies.....

    Had a guy trying to bend my ear for a half hour at the Oshkosh show.

    Planet X is coming back.......

    Tin foil hat time!!

    Art
     
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Monkeyleg:

    I hope you'll keep up the good work, aggravating though I'm sure it is.
     
  6. Gfrey

    Gfrey Member

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    Dick,


    Thanks for your hard work. I notified my legislators, and my rep and senator are co sponsors.


    Gun show? I gotta get me to one of them and buy all those cheap guns that don't have any paperwork :rolleyes: , tax :rolleyes: or problems.

    I am going to call them again next month to see what is going on.

    Remember, you aren't doing this to get rich, take power, or get elected.
    This job is it's own reward. RIGHT?

    Take a deep breath. Deer hunters never have, and probably never will agree as one group. Neither will Farmers, Automobile Drivers, or Doctors.
    It would be a pretty dull world if everyone agreed, now wouldn't it?

    Take two cases of ammo to the range and be ready to try again next weekend!


    Ger
     
  7. SkunkApe

    SkunkApe Member

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    Hang in there, Monkeyleg. You're fighting the good fight. One man such as yourself has the political power of a hundred, nay, a thousand, of the common folk. As I tell my similarly frustrated friend:

    "Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public."

    I can see now why some people believe the best form of govenment is a benevolent dictatorship...
     
  8. AJ Dual

    AJ Dual member

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    Ooohh...

    (Shaking head sadly)Dick... Dick...

    Please don't give "them" numbers...

    The next time I help out at a show, the poor schmuck is going to have no idea why I'm throttling him and screaming, "Arrrgh! You're a 'number 3'! I hate number 3's!"

    There was one elderly fellow at the last Waukesha show who was farsighted, had back trouble and arthritis, and was obviously in some discomfort leaning over the table to fill out the card, but he did it.

    I wanted to grab each and every person who was "for CCW" in WI, but too lazy and shirking when it was time to fill out a card, and drag them back to the table to watch that old man fill out a card.

    Although, on a bright note, the Waukesha show was the best I've ever worked, especially considering that so many of them had seen us before by then.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2003
  9. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    I am an ex-Wisconsonite. After finishing school 5 years ago, I moved out to Colorado -- we've had CCW there for years, and just in 2003 passed both robust open-carry and statewide shall-issue CCW laws. Good gun shops abound, there are more IPSC, IDPA, 3Gun, and other matches per month than one person can shoot, and I can buy reloading supplies in bulk at good prices at the local Sportsmans' Warehouse.

    For the last week I've been visiting relatives in southern WI. In short, the climate here makes me sad. I heard one otherwise reasonable person say, in regard to CCW, "But I don't want poor people to be carrying guns around." and "I don't have any reason to carry a gun."

    What is up with the midwest?

    -z
     
  10. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    If it makes you feel any better I have been meaning to email you to say that I would love to help out for the whole day on Sat.

    I worked the MN CCRN booth a few weeks ago, I know exactly how you feel. The worst are the guys with all the conspiracy theories. I had one guy go on about the NWO for 20 minutes!!!! Made me pissed. All I wanted to do was send him on his way with our newsletter.
     
  11. mpthole

    mpthole Member

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    Dick - I've met the same types at shows and at the range. Its frustrating to say the least. :banghead: What especially amazed me once was a guy ranting about how the "evil" Jews were the ones really in control of the world and how they would bring about the NWO - and this was at a gun range with LOTS of loaded weapons around. I got away from that looney ASAP. :scrutiny:

    We just have to keep fighting the good fight. Keep on, keepin' on as they say. ;)

    Hope to see you Saturday. We'll get concealed carry yet! :cool:
     
  12. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    <wink> Isn't that what the internet is for? </wink>
     
  13. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

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    Zak Smith: "finishing school?"

    My wife went to "finishing school" back in the late 60's. It didn't make her more beautiful than she already was (hard to improve on perfection), nor did it make her any more or less poised. But she can still do a cake-walk with a book balanced on her head. :)

    This state is so schizophrenic that it's impossible to describe. We elected a fairly conservative governor four times in a row, but voted for probably the most liberal and anti-constitution US senator--Russ Feingold--twice.

    In terms of percentage of gun owners who are NRA members, Wisconsin is among the highest. Most states can only boast one out of every 20 gunowners as NRA members. Here, it's one out of every seven.

    But, still, one has to be in shock at the people you encounter. From apathy to ignorance, it's a real eye-opener. And I don't mean to trash-talk some people. It's just been a real education.

    Example: last year I had a guy all set to address a postcard. I told him to put his name and return address in the upper left-hand corner of the card. "I don't remember my address." Ok, he must have moved recently. I asked him to point to a region on the map where he lived. "Don't know." Um, alright sir, do you happen to have your wallet with you? "Sure do." Would you mind taking it out? He did. I asked him if he would show me his drivers license, and he did. I said, "is this your address?" He was absolutely surprised. "Well, ****, that's it!" :banghead:

    We have a governor who, during the previous twelve years while attorney general, advocated everything from handgun bans to bans on shotguns. He embraced every looney-toon idea that came out of Sarah Brady's mouth. Yet, when it came time for him to run as a candidate for governor, he managed to convince the union guys that he was for the "rights of hunters and sportsmen."

    Here you've got an AG who advocated banning shotguns, ammo, handguns, primers, powder, Black Rifles, Brown Rifles---you name it--and he gets the unions' nods. Twelve years of advocating the most extreme anti-gun measures, and the union guys vote him in. And, when you talk to these guys at the gun shows, they say "oh, Doyle, der hey. He ain't so bad."

    Yeah, and Lester Maddox had a nice restaurant. Unless you were black. Or you liked baseball bats applied to the heads of blacks.

    I could go on and on about the weird people that we meet at the gun shows, but I'm more concerned about the volunteers. Two months ago we had to turn down volunteers; we had too many. At some point the tables become too congested and the show attendees couldn't get to the table.

    Now we're in the absolute final stretch of a ten-year fight, and we're looking at 50-50 odds (or better) of winning, and the volunteers aren't coming forth. It's ridiculous that folks who, just three months ago, were willing to go b*** to the wall for this effort, but in the final stretch are shrinking from the effort.

    It's incredible that people who sincerely believed we could win would now give up because the newspapers say the effort will fail. The newspapers don't have any more inside info than I do. In fact, I have more info, and the papers are absolutely wrong.

    I'm going to stop ranting now, and issue another call to arms: stand up for your rights, take a few hours to volunteer, show Jim "Bingo" Doyle that he doesn't run this state, and preserve your status as a citizen. It only requires maybe three to four hours, and the work isn't hard. In fact, the job is much easier than the "call to arms" issued 227 years ago.
     
  14. MacViolinist

    MacViolinist Member

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    WI volunteers

    To all you guys in WI looking for the help:
    My older sister just married a guy who lives in Wausaw (sp?) and, surprise, she lives there now as well. She and her new hubby are both pro gun and the hubby has an enormous family. If you are going to do a show anywhere near Wausaw (again sp?), PM me and I'll put you in touch. He does pretty well in his business and might also be able to put some corporate lobby power in the right places.

    -drew
     
  15. Raven Jeff 2003

    Raven Jeff 2003 Member

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    Hang in there Dick!

    Dick,

    I agree and sympathize with many of your points. During one of the gun shows I worked I was approached by a man. When I asked him to please fill out a postcard he replied : "There are too many nuts out there already with guns". I must admit I was shocked and disgusted. He obviously felt HE was ok to carry a gun but nobody else was. I tried to engage him in a rational conversation without success. He left the booth and I fumed.

    Then I remembered the young woman (Susan?) who testified during the public hearing about how she and later her sister were raped and the assailiants never caught. I thought about my own family and I realized I am supporting it for them. No mush brained idiot is ever going to get me to slow down my support of this measure.

    For every thumb-shucking nimrod there are 100 Susan's. Kept that in mind as we press on to victory.

    Warmest regards to you and your family.

    Jeff
     
  16. 12-34hom

    12-34hom Member

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    I have gone to several shows in the state in where i live, trying to pick up some bargins on reloading materials and other related stuff.

    From what i've seen some of the vendors fall into the above lists, there are those whose firearm experiance & knowledge is extensive.

    Sadly though, most of what Monkeyleg is true. I had a friend of mine tell me he would never go to a gun show again after attending and seeing waaaaay to many weird folks in his mind.

    I guess the cream don't rise to the top on certain occasions....;)

    I mind my own buiness at gun shows & folks leave me alone.. of course i'm 6'7 and 265 lbs..:neener:

    Monkeyleg, if you ever get down in the southwestern corner of WI let me know i'd be glad to give you a hand.

    12-34hom.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2003
  17. tfurey19

    tfurey19 Member

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    Gun owners are one of the dumbest breeds in America

    Second only to gun dealers (with some exceptions such as the few that care)

    If you here an activist make a statement like that you can be assured that they have been through the trenches and you Dick seem to understand this well. I've become increasingly intolerant of this kind of stupidity. Hell I have no problem telling apathetic gun owners how dumb they really are. Its amazing how a 6 foot 5 guy dressed in fatigues walking around a gun show with a shotgun he's selling will tuck tail and run when challenged.

    Gun owners (in general) aren't too intelligent and try to hide behind the guns that the government will just come and peacefully take from them in the future.

    It is up to you, me and the people like us that do care to bear their burden in this and fight on. Keep doing the shows and don't be affraid to challenge those walking by.

    Also don't offer help to those that don't help you. All to often activists get calls for help from those that have been gun owners for years yet won't even join the NRA. These people belong in prison. Don't do anything to try and keep them out. They ask you a question ask if they are a member. But remember to be as helpful as possible to the Newbees.

    Keep up the fight and never be discouraged. WI seems like one of those states where things are changing. Even Feingold said that he does not necessarily support renewal of the AW Ban.
     
  18. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Monkeyleg,

    I meant finished my University education (UW-Madison), natch. My brother who came through 5 years later ran the pro-firearms group on campus, which is now run by Anthony Hamilton.

    If CCW does get passed, I think it might sympathetically help gun store quality, but that might just be wishful thinking.

    -z
     
  19. RAY WOODROW 3RD

    RAY WOODROW 3RD Member

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    I feel for you......................

    Rant on............................................................................

    Monkeyleg:

    We have been trying in New Jersey to get our organization (www.njcsd.org) off and running but the main problem is that people would rather complain than participate. We started off with everybody full of piss and vinager and had a great staff lined up ready to conquer the world. Had and still have a website set up for communications and even had a place for us to hold meetings that cost us next to nothing (of course it was too far from "everybody" even though it is close to the center of the state). Even had a range that we could use for fundraising that also cost next to nothing (held one fund raiser that the majority of people did not show up to). Regardless, all seemed to be going good, then a funny thing happened. The staff/volunteers found out that they had to actually work and keep obligations/promises made to make it happen! One by one they droped off. The term Sunshine patriots comes to mind.

    One left because things were not going their way.

    One just dropped of the face of the earth even though they talked a good game.

    One left because their life was too busy.

    One left because of running for office and did not want to have it as an issue.

    One left because children were now in the picture and the time was not there even though there was time to run their own website to complain on.

    etc., etc., etc.

    Now, a good portion of them are high tailing it to gun friendly states. They would rather run then draw a line and stand and fight. Its easier to move your family you see!

    I have not named names of the guilty parties out of my respect to them for even initially standing up and trying to help BUT I am pissed at all of them for turning their back and walking away from an organization that can and will change things in NJ. We were going to do the "gun show" thing in PA since NJ doesn't even allow them, but could not find volunteers. Hunters? Don't even go there! I too will sit back and laugh my "not so skinny butt" off when the "anti-gun sights" are turned on them and they start to try and organize.

    To the people that frequent this board:

    It takes more than joining the NRA or JPFO or NJCSD or any other group to get things the way you wish them to be. Your $XX.XX are appriciated BUT your TIME is needed more than anything. Moving to another state only prolongs the inevitable and passes the battle onto the shoulders of your children. Is that what you wish?

    YOU HAVE TO BECOME ACTIVE!

    Stop complaining and throw your hat into the ring. If your from New Jeresy, give us a hand! We are in one of the worst gun states in the Union which means we start off way behind the eigh ball. Go to www.njcsd.org and join/volunteer to become part of the solution, not part of the problem. We could use your help to get the ball rolling. I'm tired of hearing that it is a waste of time. If that energy of complaining would be put to proper use we could kick the snot out of the laws.

    Rant off............................................................................

    Sorry Monkeyleg. You hit a real RAW NERVE with your post and I could not stop my hands from typing!

    Quote:
    "Now we're in the absolute final stretch of a ten-year fight..."

    Keep it going guys. It is a tough and thankless fight but being thanked is not the reason we do it.


    Yours in Liberty,

    Ray Woodrow 3rd
    www.njcsd.org
     
  20. Partisan Ranger

    Partisan Ranger Member

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    Every postcard the NRA and GOA sends me to fill out and send in to the state or feds, I fill out and send them.

    Pretty mind-boggling that so many 'pro gun' people won't do this simple thing. Or don't know how!:what:
     
  21. Shooter 2.5

    Shooter 2.5 Member

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    I went through the same thing. I posted a Wisconsin CCW alert on another website and only seven members responded. Not one of them was from Wisconsin.
     
  22. AJ Dual

    AJ Dual member

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    That's a good start, and I'm not saying Partisan Ranger dosen't do more than that as well, (I'll wager he does) but I have no way of knowing, so I'll use the NRA and GOA cards as another example.

    There's nothing that beats a hand-written note or letter. And I got several people at each show who think sending in their NRA cards stuffed in the mailers as "doing enough".

    Legislative staffers judge public sentiment by not just the quantity of communication they get, but the types of communication. They are "ranked" by what kind of communication they get, which is basically the percieved effort you put forth to get your point across.

    With some leeway, legislative communications are ranked like this:

    - Individually typed or written letters and cards. Counted as representing the opinions of 25-100 voters.
    - Preprinted cards from advocacy groups. Counted as representing the opinions of 10-30 voters.
    - Phone call to the legislators office/switchboard. Counted as representing the opinions of 1-10 voters.
    - e-mail. Counted as the opinion of 1 - (or less) voters.

    It's just another point of ignorance that never ceases to amaze me with the gun-owners is that writing letters, especially in this day and age, can have such an impact. It's also sad that it seems everyone who declines to fill out a card claiming they've already written letters for the hosue, senate, and the upcoming veto override session, and looks me in the eye when they say it, so I believe them seems to be well over 50 years old. :(

    If I could choose between every gun-owner belonging to the NRA, or every gun-owner being willing to write just one letter a year to thier representatives, wether federal or state, I'd choose the letter writers. The NRA could go back to teaching scouts with .22's if that happened.
     
  23. RAY WOODROW 3RD

    RAY WOODROW 3RD Member

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    Can I borrow this AJ Dual??????????????

    I'm going to borrow this analogy of written letters compared to email etc for our site www.njcsd.org if you do not mind AJ Dual. Of course I will give you proper credit.
     
  24. AJ Dual

    AJ Dual member

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    No credit needed.

    I'm just paraprhasing info I've been told, and for all I know it could be off by an order of magnitude. :D

    You'd probably want to try the web for an article or any cites that lay this out more succinctly.

    If not, I at least know that's the order that those items "rank". Even if my estimates are not accurate.

    A typed or written letter does indeed "count the most" when trying to be heard, whatever the actual numbers are.
     
  25. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

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    Zak Smith, I know what you meant. I was just "funnin' ya." ;)

    12-34hom: the southwestern part of the state is pretty much written off. The Beloit area is represented by Senator Judith Robson and like-minded anti's. If we get this passed, people from Beloit are going to have to travel a ways to get their permits, because the sheriff down there doesn't want to issue, and the county board will likely give him permission to opt out.

    However, we are looking for volunteers to hang out in gun shops on Saturday the 10th and Sunday the 11th in the following areas: Kenosha, Sheboygan, Stevens Point and Wausau. These four areas are represented by Democrat senators and/or assemblymen who voted for the bill and who could possibly flip. The volunteers will need to have a cell phone, and will snag people in the store and get them to call their senator and/or representatives' offices and leave a message. We already have permission from the shop owners to do this.

    There are no gun shows going on in those areas, and it's the last weekend before the override votes. So, we're pulling out all stops. If you or anyone else here wants to help with the cellphone effort, contact me at info@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

    While the cellphone effort is going on, we're going to be doing the gun show in Eau Claire, which is just a stone's throw from the district of Democrat Representative Barbara Gronemus, one of the seven assembly Democrats who voted for the bill. I think she will stay on board, but at this point trust isn't even a consideration. Governor Doyle is going to use every bit of bribery and muscle that he can to defeat the override. He already broke the law at least once during the assembly vote by trading cash for votes, so it's certainly posssible he'll do it again.

    Getting back to my original rant: if we don't get this override, I'm going to be just a little bit miffed, especially at the deer hunters. Before this all got started, I did RO duty at hunter sight-ins. I'll do them again, but will tell the hunters that a rifle is more accurate if you tighten the screws on the action, then back them out two full turns. Or that any ammo is good to use in any rifle, as long as it begins with the number ".3". If they're dumb enough to believe Doyle, they'll believe me. :)
     
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