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Wife's CCW interview with Sheriff

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by antsi, Sep 27, 2007.

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  1. antsi

    antsi Member

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    We moved from one IN county to another this year. Two years ago, I got my CCW in Indianapolis, which was essentially a big-city bureaucratic paperwork process. IN is a shall-issue state.

    My wife has "been meaning to" get her CCW but just got around to it this year when we moved to a smaller community in IN. Here, the sheriff wants to meet personally with every applicant. There was a three week wait for an appointment, so she just had her meeting today.

    She took her certificates from NRA personal protection pistol training to show him, and did a bit of research on IN self defense law in case she got questioned about that.

    She said he was friendly, pro-gun-owner, and supportive. He said "It is not my job to judge your motivations for wanting to carry a pistol." He told her that guns are potentially dangerous, but alo potentially life saving and praised her decision to get her CCW. He also praised her decision to get training although it is not required by IN law.

    In general she said it was a positive experience. She came back motivated to practice more - not because the Sheriff criticized her or anything, but just because she was impressed by the importance of being proficient as possible.

    My wife had our 2-year old son with her, and the Sheriff scored some points by encouraging her to teach him to shoot when he is old enough and generally being attentive to the kid. Outside his office when the interview was over, he took my wife to where she had to do her paperwork and told the people in the office "this little guy will be the youngest citizen we've ever issued a pistol permit to."

    I'm glad this went well and glad it had good effects on my wife and her motivation. At the same time I had some reflections on this process and wanted to get feedback from the THR gang.

    1) Although I can't see any bad motives here and I'm grateful we have a pro-RKBA CLEO in our community, I can't help reflecting that the Sheriff's policy of meeting all applicants personally could delays the application. However, it did take several weeks to process my application through Indy, and I think it is quite possible that the smaller community buraucracy gets things done quicker than they do in Indy. That has been our experience with other gov't departments since we moved.

    2) One of the Sheriff's motivations here might be that his system gets gun owners to meet him and find out that he is a supporter of gun rights. Maybe part of his motivation is electioneering.

    3) I think my wife is what most LEOs would consider a "good candidate" for CCW - knowledgeable about guns, has taken training, very sober responsible and law-abiding, we keep our guns in a safe at home, etc. I wonder how the Sheriff handles other kinds of applicants. For example, my personal opinion is that training should not be a legal requirement, but should be strongly recommended. Maybe he takes these meetings as an opportunity to make recommendations like that.

    4) + or - having to meet with the Sheriff, I am grateful to live in IN after reading all the "adventures" other folks have with CCW applications (or not even having the option in some places).

    5) Also grateful to have such a practical sensible and responsible wife, especially after reading about the "adventures" other people have with their spouses/squeezes.
     
  2. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Interview? WTH?:confused:

    By what statutory authority is this being done? Which county is pulling this?
     
  3. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    That makes this Sheriff's "procedure" a violation. If they ran the background checks and she passed then they had XXX number of days (I believe they say six to eight weeks) to issue her permit or inform her of her denial.

    That's XXX number of days...period. Not XXX number of days plus however many the sheriff feels like taking so he can personally approve.

    In a "shall issue" state it's not just "not his job" but it is probably illegal for him to even hint about that. If she passed the background checks and other specifically listed requirements....she gets her permit. PERIOD. That's what "Shall issue" means and it was instituted to override various LEO, Judges, etc. who felt they were in authority to decide who gets what based on personal bias.
     
  4. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    Fascinating. On the one hand good the Sheriff is involved in the community. On the other bad that he is supplanting the law with his on personal take. Probably needs to go.
     
  5. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    Hmmmmm... I regard it not as a "qualifying" interview, but an opportunity to encourage applicants to get training.... and to teach their kids how to shoot.

    Yeah, we shouldn't have to jump through any hoops to bear arms, but that's the way things are for now, and I don't see a problem with the activities as described. I'd vote for that Sheriff.
     
  6. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    You mean except for it being illegal? In "shall-issue" states you don't get to add on requirements like a personal interview. That is simply not how it works!
     
  7. Houston Tom

    Houston Tom Member

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    In a rural community it does not surprise me. 20 some years ago when I got my first permit you had to go to the sheriffs office to get it/ apply. the Sherill saw me come in and he personally come over to help me after I told him what I wanted he asked if I was sure I knew how to use the pistol I was going to carry then laughed and said he was sure my grandfather had made sure of that. After filling out the paperwork and handing me my permit, he told me to be carful and not to shoot anybody that did not need shooting, We then discussed the college footbal season and I was on my way. Legal or not that is the way things work in alot of small rural places.
     
  8. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    He can ask applicants to interview, but cannot legally mandate such action.
     
  9. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    In Maine, if you live in an incorporated town with it's own P.D. The Chief of Police IS the issuing authority. There is no other....he acts as the States agent. If (and only if) you live outside of a town with a P.D. it's off the the State Police Barracks with you. Maines too is a shall issue state, and unless you have checked one of the boxes Yes....you're going to get your permit.

    Small town USA is a great place to live and IMHO, a five minute face to face can give the issueing authority a lot more meaningful info. than a stack of paperwork. If the issuing authority wants to put his eyes on your face and your drivers liscence at the same time and observe whether or not you talk to yourself and mumble "I'll kill the $#@@", more power to 'em.

    I can't see any problem with the issuing authority wanting to do a face check and explain any questions you have about the law....esp. in a shall issue state that has no training requirement.

    Of course, my position assumes that the issueing authority follows the law and signs off on your permit. It's not like the Sherrif is a dictator who accounts to no one. You have legal recourse if you get turned down.
     
  10. Dave P

    Dave P Member

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    We had to appear in person for county permits years ago. You could argue that this was to keep undesirables from getting permits. Or you could say it was racist.

    I think your Sheriff should be commended for being intimately involved, but it is appearantly not legal.
     
  11. lawson4

    lawson4 Member

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    Remember that he is the Police and anything you say to him in an interview may come back to haunt you, if you have to use your gun. As he is acting in an official capacity, (legal interview or not) if you lie to him or misrepresent yourself, you may pay for it later.

    lawson4
     
  12. kludge

    kludge Member

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    Exactly what I was thinking.
     
  13. crankshop1000

    crankshop1000 Member

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    In Michigan (a shall issue state) each county establishes a gun board.The gun board reviews and approves (or denies) all applications. The gun board MAY choose to have a sit down with each applicant if they choose.The process may not unduly delay the issue of a permit to a applicant.
     
  14. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Depends on how it's done. I have to go to the SO to get my permit renewed. If the Sheriff was the one doing the paperwork because he wanted to, so what?

    If the "interview" is a quasi-requirement...and he says "no" to people not based on the background check, that's not legal in a shall issue state.

    Wanting to meet each applicant, but not requiring it is perfectly fine.
     
  15. pax

    pax Member

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    Hmmm, that's an interesting dilemma.

    I'm thinking about when I applied for my shall-issue permit from a small town sherriff's office. Very friendly folks behind the counter, no problems there. Seems to me that it wouldn't have been unlikely for the fellow who actually was signing my paper to come out & shake my hand ... if it was during an election cycle. Don't think I'd've been happy with having to make an appointment to shake his hand though.

    Anyway, from the way the interview was described, it sure does not sound nefarious. Congratulations to your wife on her new permit. May she use it every day and never need it!

    pax
     
  16. antsi

    antsi Member

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    -------quote--------
    In "shall-issue" states you don't get to add on requirements like a personal interview. That is simply not how it works!
    ---------------------

    I'm divided. I can certainly see this point of view.

    Technically I don't know if the interview is "required." I think the way they asked my wife was "would you be willing to meet with the Sheriff? He likes to meet personally with pistol permit applicants."

    I realize that is potentially sticky too, because no matter how politely phrased, a "personal request" from your community's CLEO carries more than just a hint of authority behind it. It's not like your neighbor inviting you over to watch the football game.

    My wife is a good judge of character (other than one very disastrous error in judgement which should be obvious to all ;) ) and she had a good take on the guy. I trust her in this case that the current Sheriff is a decent guy doing this for decent reasons and not trying to obstruct our RKBA processes.

    However, I do see the potential for abuse if we got a nanny-state weenie in the office, doing ostensibly the same thing, but tweaking it for obstructionist purposes.
     
  17. ABBOBERG

    ABBOBERG Member

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    In St.Paul, MN, a few weeks after filling out the permit application, I received an appointment in the mail. It was two weeks out. I then met with a deputy and he asked me about why I was applying. I told him it was for self-defense if I had to go into the bad areas at night (he seemed so nice - I didn't want to tell him it was none of his business). He also reviewed my qualification target (shot in the dark) and complimented me on my score. I thought the process took too long.
     
  18. The Wiry Irishman

    The Wiry Irishman Member

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    When my friend got his IN CCW in his bitty little county, the Sheriff handled it personally, as well, probably just for something to do. When my friend paid, the sheriff gave him a hand-written receipt that read "Han Gun Permit." (that's no typo on my part, and my friend still has that receipt 4 years later) Depending on how backwater the county is, it could just be a sheriff trying to live in Andy Griffith's Mayberry. Heck, the county my friend got his permit in has a town whose motto is "The Mayberry of the Midwest."
     
  19. Geno
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    Geno Member

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    As I read the posts, I found myself agreeing on the surface, yet deep inside I was simultaneously repulsed by how our RKBA society has been reduced to getting big brother's approval to exercise our rights. I know I am preaching to the choir, but, all the same...regarding the following points, this is what I feel:

    Sheriff's policy?! That's bass-ackwards. Used to be the sheriff had to go to the people for supports.

    If he isn’t a supporter of the Constitution, he doesn't belong in that office.

    RKBA isn't about candidate...it smacks of sheeple.

    Because we fit the mold of good and compliant people...not too many tattoos, no piercings..strike down yet one more right...free expression.

    Number 5 is none of my business. We marry whom we love and we live with the consequences of, or the benefits of that decision. Good on you that you have both communicated the importance of RKBA!

    Again, I do not intend to say that this is what I think of the original poster. That is not my point at all. My point is that I see these same danged thoughts in my OWN mind! That's wrong! And it repulses me that I think this way! It is not what my founding Fathers intended. It makes me so very appreciative to be a member of The High Road where we can appreciate each other’s experiences.

    Thank-you for sharing this very personal thoughts!

    Doc2005
     
  20. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    base on your post, it doesn't sound like he's "trying" to live in Mayberry.

    you city slickers need to get out more often.

    There are many, many Mayberry's out there.....sucking it up paying their taxes to underwrite one urban failure after another so the city slickers can live some place with a "night life".

    Small town USA is the BEST town in the USA.
     
  21. BobMcG

    BobMcG Member

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    Soooo...

    What happens to the applicants in your area (OP) when a not so friendly (toward RKBA) sheriff gets elected and wants to follow the same procedure?
     
  22. antsi

    antsi Member

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    -----quote-------
    RKBA isn't about candidate...it smacks of sheeple.

    Because we fit the mold of good and compliant people...not too many tattoos, no piercings..strike down yet one more right...free expression.
    -----------------

    I know, I have the same concerns. That's what I was getting at when I was wondering how the Sheriff would have dealt with a "less ideal" CCW candidate. He was very nice to my wife, but then again, she's the kind of person a Sheriff is going to be inclined to be nice to. If she had a bunch of tatoos and wierd piercings and radical political messages printed on her shirt, she might not have gotten the same kind reception.

    Then again, maybe he would have been just as nice to my hypothetical goth hippie counterculture wife. I don't know this guy and it definitely isn't fair for me to prejudge him based on what I imagine he might do in a hypothetical situation. From all the evidence we have, he is a perfectly decent pleasant guy trying to serve his community as best he knows how.
     
  23. bulgron

    bulgron Member

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    This sounds like a tough problem to handle. On the one hand, positive interaction with LEO is always a good thing. On the other hand, administrative abuse is always a definite concern, especially when it comes to RKBA.

    By going along with what is apparently a questionable activity, the public gives their de-facto stamp of approval on that activity. Left unguarded, over the years this sort of thing can obtain the force of law, and then subsequently become a barrier to exercising a right.

    See this excellent essay on slippery slopes (it's long) to see what I mean:

    http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html

    From that essay, this passage seems relevant (the essay speaks to England's experience, by the way):

    You see, it starts with the police doing "reasonable things" that no one questions, and a few decades later the reasonable has become unreasonable and a right is lost forever.

    If it had been me, I would have met with the sheriff, but I would have taken the time to question him thoroughly on the purpose of the interview, and to make sure he understood it isn't supportable under the law.

    The trick is to do this in such a way as to not make the guy mad.

    But I think it has to be done anyway.
     
  24. Templar223

    Templar223 Member

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    The High Road...

    Sometimes I wonder if it's more like the "The High and Mighty Road".

    Here's a sheriff who meets with an applicant personally, gives them a pep talk on the importance of things, and issues a permit.

    And people here are ready to castigate him - looking for a problem. It's just like several THR members castigated me for "helping" the anti's by selling them $2300 worth of mostly rusty, all effectively junk guns at a gun "buy back" in Chicago a couple of months ago. I'm surprised they didn't label those kids who shot the ammunition we bought with that money at an NRA Youth Shooting Camp as supporting anti-gun endeavors as well.

    Me, I'd be pleased to have had a sit-down with the Sheriff to talk if my state had shall issue. He might be a good guy to know in general and certainly if I ever had to use my safety rescue tool.

    Seems a lot of folks on this site like to go about looking to make mountains out of molehills while ignoring the real hills and mountains all around them on the horizon.

    John
     
  25. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    No fault to find in the sheriff IMO. The application has a place to put reason or purpose.
     
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