Will 80% lowers need to be sold at the gun store?

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FrankieJames7

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the new ghost gun ban is confusing. are they banning kits? or all 80% lowers? and i know they are not banned if they are already bought. what i am asking is, will i be able to ship a 80 percent forging to my house after the ghost gun ban? i already have the tools to complete 80 percent ar lowers so i will not be buying a kit
 
Until we see the AWB's final form, we can't know.

The frame/receiver rule change is different and separate from the the AWB bill. The frame/receiver rule change goes into effect on 24 August 2022.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver

the new ghost gun ban is confusing. are they banning kits? or all 80% lowers? and i know they are not banned if they are already bought. what i am asking is, will i be able to ship a 80 percent forging to my house after the ghost gun ban? i already have the tools to complete 80 percent ar lowers so i will not be buying a kit

According to the rule change on receivers and frames, new "80%" frames/receivers sold new will have to be serialized. Also if you take and trade/sell a personally built firearm to a FFL, they will have to put a serial number on it. If you take one to a gunsmith and they have to keep it overnight IE log it into their books, they will have to put a serial number on it.

A serial number will not be required for home built firearms already in one's possession. The exceptions are mentioned above. The serial number requirement only effects manufacturers and those with any type of FFL that handle/deal with home built firearms. See the link above for more information.

To answer your original question, From 24 Aug on, yes all 80% kits will have to be sold/transferred through a FFL. Now this still doe not effect private sales between to non licensed individuals as long as all other laws are followed.
 
It may depend on how it's packaged.

If a jig is included, the new rule, calls that "a firearm." Ad, if all the parts are included, but not a jig, that's also a firearm.
The rules can be read to require serializing, to not require, and to be "both."
 
https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2022-08026/p-840

(c) Partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver. The terms “frame” and “receiver” shall include a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver, i.e., to house or provide a structure for the primary energized component of a handgun, breech blocking or sealing component of a projectile weapon other than a handgun, or internal sound reduction component of a firearm muffler or firearm silencer, as the case may be. The terms shall not include a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, unmachined body, or similar article that has not yet reached a stage of manufacture where it is clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon ( e.g., unformed block of metal, liquid polymer, or other raw material). When issuing a classification, the Director may consider any associated templates, jigs, molds, equipment, tools, instructions, guides, or marketing materials that are sold, distributed, or possessed with the item or kit, or otherwise made available by the seller or distributor of the item or kit to the purchaser or recipient of the item or kit. The following are nonexclusive examples that illustrate the definitions:

Example 1 to paragraph (c)—Frame or receiver: A frame or receiver parts kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver.

Example 2 to paragraph (c)—Frame or receiver: A partially complete billet or blank of a frame or receiver with one or more template holes drilled or indexed in the correct location is a frame or receiver, as a person with common hand tools may readily complete the billet or blank to function as a frame or receiver.

Example 3 to paragraph (c)—Frame or receiver: A complete frame or receiver of a weapon that has been disassembled, damaged, split, or cut into pieces, but not destroyed in accordance with paragraph (e), is a frame or receiver.

Example 4 to paragraph (c)—Not a receiver: A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver.

Example 5 to paragraph (c)—Not a receiver: A flat blank of an AK variant receiver without laser cuts or indexing that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools is not a receiver, as a person cannot readily fold the flat to provide housing or a structure for the primary component designed to block or seal the breech prior to initiation of the firing sequence.
According to the modified rules, mere possession of an 80% lower and the jigs, templates, equipment, or tools necessary to complete the lower is considered to be a firearm, regardless of whether the jigs and the 80% lower were sold as a kit or purchased separately at different times.

It is my interpretation of the above rules that if you've ever bought an 80% lower that included a jig and you still have the jig, then every single 80% lower you buy from that point on is a firearm even before it is completed.
 
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According to the modified rules, mere possession of an 80% lower and the jigs, templates, equipment, or tools necessary to complete the lower is considered to be a firearm, regardless whether the jigs and the 80% lower were sold as a kit or purchased separately at different times.

It is my interpretation of the above rules that if you've ever bought an 80% lower that included a jig and you still have the jig, then every single 80% lower you buy from that point on is a firearm even before it is completed.

To clarify, based on your interpretation, as long as a person isn't in possession of a jig, the unserialized 80% lowers will be perfectly legal after August 24th?
 
To clarify, based on your interpretation, as long as a person isn't in possession of a jig, the unserialized 80% lowers will be perfectly legal after August 24th?
As long as you're not a prohibited person, they will continue to be legal. They will also be considered firearms if they are possessed with the jigs, tools, or instructions necessary to "readily" complete the 80%.(Example 2 in my post above.)

If you don't have any of the jigs, fixtures, tools, or instructions, then the 80% item will stay just an item, not a firearm frame or receiver (Example 4 above.)

So if your shop is set up to complete 80% lowers, then every 80% you bring home becomes a firearm in the eyes of the ATF, just as if you've completed the lower under today's rules. Whether it will stay that way will be determined by prolonged litigation in the courts.

Which begs more questions that are not answerable without considerable litigation: If I have the jigs, fixtures, tools, and/or instructions necessary to complete an 80% AR lower or Glock-ish handgun frame, then every 80% item I own is considered to be a firearm. If I sell/give an 80% lower to someone else who does not possess any jigs, fixtures, tools, or instructions on how to complete the 80% lower, have I transfered a firearm to that person, or is the 80% lower magically no longer considered to be a firearm because the new possessor doesn't have the requisite tools or instructions necessary? (Example 4 in my previous post.)
 
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And even after this rule change goes into effect, it is still 100% legal for individuals to possess a home built firearm without any serial numbers. The serial number requirement only effects manufacturers and FFLs. When I say FFLs that includes gunsmiths.

Edited to add:

Always check your state laws. The can be more restrictive.
 
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And even after this rule change goes into effect, it is still 100% legal for individuals to possess a home built firearm without any serial numbers. The serial number requirement only effects manufacturers and FFLs. When I say FFLs that includes gunsmiths.
With all of the normal caveats that "your state and local laws may vary." 11 states regulate homemade firearms in some manner, many requiring serialization.

https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/law/ghost-guns-regulated/
 
Just found this excellent discussion, and may I add a question: Suppose I buy an unserialized P80 80% pistol frame prior to 8/24, and do nothing with it. And I am a an individual, not a reseller or gun shop. Then sometime after 8/24, I decide I am not going to build the gun after all, so I have no need for it. So it's basically unfinished, unserialized, and NIB. Can I still sell it without going through an FFL, since I am selling it after 8/24? Thanks
 
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Just found this excellent discussion, and may I add a question: Suppose I buy an unserialized P80 80% pistol frame prior to 8/24, and do nothing with it. And I am a an individual, not a reseller or gun shop. Then sometime after 8/24, I decide I am not going to build the gun after all, so I want to sell the 80% frame. So it's basically unfinished, unserialized, and NIB. Can I sell it without going through an FFL, since I am selling it after 8/24? Thanks

As I answered in your thread, you will not have to put a serial number on any home built frames/receivers, or completed firearms in your possession as an individual.

The serial number requirements only effect manufacturers, vendors and FFL holders. Please read the links in post #7 above.
 
(c) Partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver. The terms “frame” and “receiver” shall include a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver, i.e., to house or provide a structure for the primary energized component of a handgun, breech blocking or sealing component of a projectile weapon other than a handgun, or internal sound reduction component of a firearm muffler or firearm silencer, as the case may be.
Whoa. Reading closely, it seems that the AR-15 lower receiver is not covered by this, since it does not "provide a structure for the primary energized component" or a structure for the "breech blocking or sealing component." Those functions are provided by the upper receiver.

This whole thing is as clear as mud.

What worries me most is the intersection of this new regulation with the NFA. There are lots of "dummy" or "display" machine guns out there, built on incomplete or nonfunctional receivers. Carried to its logical conclusion, the regulation means that these are now unregistered machine guns, with all that that entails.

Indeed (if the AR-15 lower receiver is included), any AR-15 could be an unregistered machine gun, since only the "third hole" would need to be drilled in order to fit the definition.
 
Whoa. Reading closely, it seems that the AR-15 lower receiver is not covered by this, since it does not "provide a structure for the primary energized component" or a structure for the "breech blocking or sealing component." Those functions are provided by the upper receiver.

But if you read further you will see that they are NOT changing the classification on AR receivers or even current semi-auto pistols. What the ruling does is try to clarify what part is the actual frame/receiver. Yes it takes a long time to read through the entire ruling but one really must do so to understand what the changes are.
 
Whoa. Reading closely, it seems that the AR-15 lower receiver is not covered by this, since it does not "provide a structure for the primary energized component" or a structure for the "breech blocking or sealing component." Those functions are provided by the upper receiver.
You need to read the entire regulation and not just the cut and pasted portions of paragraph (c) above:;)

(i) AR-15/M-16 variant firearms: The receiver is the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer ( i.e., lower receiver).


This whole thing is as clear as mud.
No, on fact it makes the definition of firearm frame or receiver more exact. It also keeps us from having to classify both the upper and lower receivers of an AR as firearms.




Indeed (if the AR-15 lower receiver is included), any AR-15 could be an unregistered machine gun, since only the "third hole" would need to be drilled in order to fit the definition.
Nope.
 
It seems that they wrote it in such a way as to invite court challenges.
No, it was criminal case and a judge who was about to rule that an AR lower (as currently defined) was not a firearm. US Attorney dropped the case and ATF began a furious rewrite of their definitions that have been out of date for decades.

This aint new....it was discussed months ago: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/definition-of-“frame-or-receiver”-and-identification-of-firearms-final-rule.904400/#post-12272157
 
So in the division 80 lawsuit against atf, the judge heard arguments for a preliminary injunction. The said he will likely decide to or to not grant an injunction before the rule goes into effect on the 24th
 
okay...just to clarify...if I just buy an 80 lower...and only the lower...the seller has to serialize and do a transfer? OR is that only the case if they are selling the turn-key kit or parts kit with said lower?
 
okay...just to clarify...if I just buy an 80 lower...and only the lower...the seller has to serialize and do a transfer? OR is that only the case if they are selling the turn-key kit or parts kit with said lower?

There seems to be some confusion about that. I have seen people state both ways if buying ONLY the frame/receiver WITHOUT any necessary parts, tool, jig, and/or instructions.

Now if the frame comes with instructions, tools, jig, or parts then it will have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL
 
okay...just to clarify...if I just buy an 80 lower...and only the lower...the seller has to serialize and do a transfer? OR is that only the case if they are selling the turn-key kit or parts kit with said lower?

So in the division 80 lawsuit, the US attorney said only parts kits are regulated. However, in the statute it says "sold with or possessed with" templates jigs or tooling. So if you can complete an 80 percent lower with anything more than a Makita drill and a center punch, every 80 percent lower would be considered a firearm. It really needs to be give an injunction because ghost gun makers can be charged with conspiracy and/or structuring, along with us citizens if we choose to buy 80 percent lowers in the mail while having everything to complete an 80 percent lower.

Even if in worst case scenario all lawsuits are shut down in court, 3 criminal courts have ruled a completed ar15 lower receiver is not a firearm because is does not hold all 3 components of a firearm receiver, the bolt, hammer, and firing mechanism. Worst case scenario is someone goes to jail and takes this to the Supreme Court who will rule a lower receiver for an ar15 is not a firearm. Let's hope hope the best
 
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, just a layperson so take whatever I post with a grain of salt.

So in the division 80 lawsuit, the US attorney said only parts kits are regulated. However, in the statute it says "sold with or possessed with" templates jigs or tooling.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/17-states-join-goa-gof-and-sue-atf’s-new-firearms-rule-on-80-percent-kits.908730/#post-12384602
  • During the preliminary injunction hearing, an admission was made by the justice department's attorney Daniel Reese that for the 80% kit to be considered regulated firearm, a jig or template with drill bits/tools and instructions MUST be sold with the 80% receiver to readily convert the receiver into a firearm
  • So it was revealed that 80% receiver without the jig/template, drill bits/tools and instructions could be sold not as a firearm
So in the division 80 lawsuit against atf, the judge heard arguments for a preliminary injunction ... he will likely decide to or to not grant an injunction before the rule goes into effect on the 24th
Based on new admissions by the DOJ attorney, judge will decide before 8/24/22 on the preliminary injunction.

BTW, current cases related to 80 percent receivers:
 
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