Will there be a change from Concealed Carry to Open Carry?

[LemmyCaution]

The kids are taught today that the constitution is a "LIVING" document
When you hear that... speak up LOUDLY...... thats codeword for CHANGABLE

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but the Constitution is a changeable document. It says so right there in Article V. That's what the word 'amend' means. To change.

It would probably be best if we stopped believing that the Constitution is a stone tablet handed down from God, and realized that it is a political document that defines a constitutional republic that follows basic rules of democracy. You may believe the country should be run one way, other citizens may believe otherwise. There is a process for changing the Constitution.

The Constitution must be followed as written until amended otherwise. That's where our efforts will best pay off- protesting and filing suit when the Constitution is not followed. The courts are the venue and the SCOTUS is the final arbiter of what the Constitution means. Much as one might blather about 'judicial activism,' it is entirely the judiciary's place and purpose to interpret the Constitution, even when it means they find against what one might wish it to mean.

Ranting and raving as if your political adversaries were blaspheming your faith is going to get little respect. It's a political process, not a religious crusade.

Back on topic:

As a resident of VT, I rarely consider the difference between open and concealed carry. There is no constructive legal difference. The only deference I ever give the subject is that I will conceal a firearm if carrying it openly would make a situation extremely socially awkward. I cover up if I encounter parents of my son's schoolmates whom I know to be anti-gun, just as I wear a suit to the company holiday party. I may not be comfortable in a suit, but I do it anyway, because there is no point in needlessly giving offense to others. Concealing my firearm affects me little, but I see little point in making others afraid, particularly if it closes them off to further rational dialogue on the subject.

If what we do here in VT is to be called Constitutional carry, I'm all for it. Whether to conceal or not should be left entirely up to the individual in his circumstances at any moment.

 

[driftrider]

Until Saturday, Iowa's law prohibits open carry without a valid Permit to Carry Weapons. issued by your local Sheriff. Currently, a PCW allows both open and concealed carry of firearms as well as items classified under Iowa law as "Dangerous Weapons" (e.g. switchblades). However, also under the current law, the Sheriff could arbitrarily restrict the scope of the permit however he say fit, including limiting the type of weapon it's valid for (e.g. handguns only, concealed only, etc...).

The great news is that Iowa passed a new "shall issue" law which not only makes the standards for issue uniform, but also restricts the issuer (still the local Sheriff for residents) from restricting the permit. Thus open and concealed carry is equally legal in Iowa, but requires a PCW.

I, personally, intend to carry concealed. I simply don't feel like drawing undue attention to myself. And, while there is nothing wrong with open carry per se, it's the reactions of others I'm concerned about. The good thing about Iowa's oc/cc law is that there is no legal worry about printing or accidentally exposing ones weapon like there is in some other ccw only states.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Authorities often see you as part of a group (the general public) and you are concidered no better than the least member of that group. The weakest link in the chain so to speak. Therefore if some people are too stupid to run around loose with a holstered firearm, then NOBODY can carry a pistol because of what they MIGHT do. This presupposes guilt based on the potential for a crime rather than any actual criminal action. This is the same exact formula as racism where all members of a group are seen as no better than the worst examples and are treated accordingly.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And, while there is nothing wrong with open carry per se, it's the reactions of others I'm concerned about.

Can I ask if you could propose a way that those reactions are ever going to change if those "reactive" people never see a normal American going about normal everyday business with a gun on their belt for self protection?

 

[driftrider]

Can I ask if you could propose a way that those reactions are ever going to change if those "reactive" people never see a normal American going about normal everyday business with a gun on their belt for self protection?

You do have a point.

I guess I just don't want to deal with the fallout from such activism. I simply don't have the time, patience or tact to deal with unnessary adversarial confrontations with frightened soccer moms, mall rent-a-cops, store managers/employees, or overzealous and uninformed LEO's, all giving me a hard time for doing something that is perfectly legal. I don't feel like being kicked out of stores and restaurants because a frightened, braindead patron freaks out at the sight of my sidearm and complains to a spineless, braindead manager who feels compelled to make a big scene because I'm perceived as a threat. I'm not the activist type, beyond the occasionally letter to a legislator. I don't need the hassle, I simply want to go about my business in peace, with my weapon there to end commotions, not start them.

Secondly, I feel that concealed carry offers a net tactical advantage should an incident erupt, especially if I'm not the direct target of the assailant (like in the cast of an armed robbery where I am a patron in the store being robbed).

 

[Arkyhog]

Geckgo, LA is the one state whose CC permits are not recognized in AR. I'm told that's because of the process for obtaining a CC permit in LA. As far as AR knows, LA has no training requirement, and LEO has complete discretion on issuing CCs with no guidelines. True?

Hiawatha, Arkansas does reciprocate completely with Louisiana on CHCL (Concealed Carry Handgun Law). You can check out this map on the Arkansas Carry website for information on all the states Arkansas reciprocates with (Iowa will be updated soon, as that state had a recent change).

Please visit the Arkansas Carry website and join our group. We have been working for the last two years to push open carry in Arkansas (so you won't lose your CHCL if you accidentally expose your firearm). We are also pushing for less restrictive concealed carry laws in Arkansas, such as carry in municipal parks, choice for churches on carry or not, etc...

Please contact me personally, if you need more information.

Steve Jones
Chairman - Arkansas Carry
www.ArkansasCarry.com
[email protected]

 

[wishin]

I'm hopeful that the law of the land will allow both concealed or open carry as our State law is in Georgia.
If a strict interpretation had to be made for the entire country, I'd argue that open carry is more practical. As we all know, criminals will carry anyway so in my opinion it would be more advantageous to law enforcement if the BG had it plain view (some would), and anyone caught carrying concealed would be presumed to be up to no good! Talk about situational awareness....

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm hopeful that the law of the land will allow both concealed or open carry as our State law is in Georgia

Honestly, I hope not. In Georgia, one must obtain a license to open carry or concealed carry. Neither is a right in Georgia - both are privileges bestowed only upon persons willing to pay for the government's permission to do so.

 

[wishin]

Honestly, I hope not. In Georgia, one must obtain a license to open carry or concealed carry. Neither is a right in Georgia - both are privileges bestowed only upon persons willing to pay for the government's permission to do so.

NavyLT, you're right! Like a reporter, you took my comment out of context.

 

[Cosmoline]

If I'm correct, when the Constitution was written it pertained to Open Carry, as Concealed Carry was more for criminals.

This is not correct at all. I think you are conflating various historical periods. The anti-ccw bias came into play much later, along with the advent of anti-concealed carry laws. The first anti-ccw laws emerged in the slave states and was directly related to fears of slave revolt. These were expanded upon in the Jim Crow south as fears became even more intense. Eventually the laws migrated north--not coincidentally with the influx of black workers from the south.

During the revolutionary era when the Constitution was drafted, no such laws existed. There were in fact many concealable flintlock pieces around during the 18th century, often ornate ones. It was NOT seen as shady for a traveling gentleman to carry such weapons. In those times there was usually no formal law enforcement at all beyond the very limited boundaries of a town or city.

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT, you're right! Like a reporter, you took my comment out of context.

Exactly what did I take out of context? Georgia law allows for neither open carry nor concealed carry (with exceptions of course) without a license. That is not the solution that I would like the "law of the land" to be.

 

[K-Rod]

IMO, Driftrider nailed it right between the eyes!!

Please school this red-neck hick. Other than it being you lawful "Right", why do you feel it neccessary to OC over CC?...........Now if your sitting there trying hard to think of another reason other than it's your "Right", please tell me what is the point? Why bring that unwanted attention upon yourself? Why do you feel it's neccesary to not "Care" if when you OC it may frieghten someone? Not everyone is firearm tolerant. Some people are very scared of the sight of a firearm. Why would a person that is concerned about their gun rights, not consider this when OC? Is it so much harder to CC? If the reason you OC is because of easier access to said firearm, you are not trained or have not trained. There is no reason IMO to OC. Why instill fear? Why are you "Ok" with scaring people when CC is just as protective?

I believe it's more of a moral question than anything.

 

[rondog]

In MY own jaded opinion, I don't think we'll ever see a NATIONAL carry law, either CCW or OC. Far too many politicians and moonbats standing in the way. It would be nice, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. I'm amazed we still have the gun freedoms that we do still have. Look at nearly every other country in the world and their gun laws. Hell, in Great Britain you can't even defend yourself against a criminal in your own home with anything deadlier than a stick. And God help you if you hurt him with that stick.

 

[wishin]

NavyLT

You chose to read into my post that I'm for firearms licensing, which I'm not.

Insofar as you're being overly simplistic on the issue, let me add that when the flames are roaring, you smell smoke and someone in the crowd shouts "fire", all the rhetoric, posturing and denial that the building was made to survive all calamities will not change the fact that it caught fire. Our Constitutional RKBA recently hinged on just one vote in the SCOTUS. The building has been on fire for decades. Be realisitic. We must accept the fact that gun laws and some regulation will not go away. I think you're too smart to believe otherwise. What we can hope and work towards through the NRA, SAF and others is to keep what restrictions we can't do anything about reasonable. It's hard to swallow, but it is what it is.

Mind you, I'm not debating what the Founders intended, nor am I getting drawn into further debate on what I've said here. What I'm stating is fact. And, in case you didn't read me right, gun regulation is here to stay. To think otherwise is delusional.

If a national gun law were passed, I will bet the farm that the law of the land would not be Constitutional carry with no limitations.

 

[NavyLCDR]

K-Rod,

I'll be happy to school a red-neck hick. Open carry has the possibility of deterring a crime from starting. The majority of felons, when interviewed, admit that they would not attack a target known to be armed. How are they going to know you are armed if the gun is concealed? I would rather deter the crime from starting, rather than defend against it after it has started. Why should I give up that dterrent value because a soccer mom is afraid of the object on my belt?

I don't want to put my family through the trauma of a self defense shooting. I would rather deter the criminal to start with.

In addition, K-Rod, how do you propose that those people that run screaming in terror at the sight of a gun are ever going to get over their fear of inanimate objects if they don't see normal Americans carrying guns in normal everyday life doing normal things that normal Americans do? We are never going to show them that it is normal for an American to have the means available to defend themselves if we, as the pro-gun crowd, treat guns as something evil that need to be hidden away from public view.

 

[K-Rod]

NavyLT

though I agree with what you are saying consider this,

Example 1). You & your wife/family are on a family outing. You all stop at a C-store for fuel, snacks etc. Your attention is on your kids asking if they can get "X" candy bar. In walks two armed BG to rob the place. One BG sees you have a weapon becuase you OC. Your a threat & let's go a blast from his 12ga at you at short range before you even realize what's happening. You & your child are hit. Threat eliminated.

Example 2). You had to work late & walking to your car. Your on your cell talking to the wife to let her know to re-heat dinner your on your way. As your walking down the street the two BG watching you notice you have a gun. You were a target for money gain before, now your a target for the gain of your gun as well. Instead of walking up & asking you for lite for their smokes & then sucker punch you grab your wallet & run, they just sneek up & bash the back of your head in with a pipe. Now your not a threat & another BG is armed.

Though I realize these are rare examples I also find it rare that would-be attacker/felon would care if he knew you had a gun because you OP, if he has a gun as well. I venture to believe the felons you spoke of that wouldn't attack a target because they knew the target had a gun, are the felons that are the opportunists. I don't believe the armed felons you care much at all because you would be on the ground before you knew what was happening. As the saying goes, "Locks are for honest people".

Furthermore IMO the I'd say the ones that OC are in fact the ones that for whatever reason can't CC. Laws of different states, no CCW etc. My point of my previous post was if you can in fact or do have the RIGHT to CC, Why would you want that unwanted attention on you for OC? Weather that unwanted attention comes in the form of said soccer mom, BG that also has a gun & is not affraid of the fact you do.

It seems to me that anyone that has a CCW & still chooses to OC, is doing it for the intimidation factor or as one other member on THR said when asked by a freind why he carries, "Because I have a small wiener"

why be percieved as a threat, if you don't have too?


As to your addition, people fear what they don't understand. It's our duty as gun owners to educate, not intimadate. You gain no respect & you fail to educate if you don't care about someones fear & just say "I don't care if your affraid. It's my right so deal with it".

Furthermore Sir you are WAY off base if you assume that I think firearms are evil! I have many firearms & I CC only with a CCW. My wife comes from a family of people that were terrified of firearms because a family member was killed by one. I educated, I was patient, I didn't force & now she has a CCW as well as most of her family. The more you force to push forward, the further behind you will get Sir.

 

[NavyLCDR]

K-Rod,

I don't open carry for attention. Being involved in a very active group of open carriers (www.opencarry.org), I can tell you that 99% of us don't open carry for the attention. We open carry because we have determined, for ourselves, through factual research, that open carry deters crime a majority of the time if we are being evaluated as a target and we would rather deter crime than defend ourselves against a criminal act once it has begun. The examples that you mentioned in your post simply have not come true in reality. Please provide us with examples if you do know of any time in reality that they have happened.

Secondly, we open carry as an example to others that it is acceptable, legal, and normal for an American to possess and carry a gun for self protection.

Why would a criminal choose to attack a target that is known to be armed and risk either drawing more attention to themselves in a shootout or risk getting killed when they could wait two minutes for the guy with the gun to leave or go down the street one block and have their pick of targets that are not apparently armed? Why would a criminal attack a person carrying a gun to obtain that gun when it would be much easier to buy a gun off the street with money they take from unarmed targets? Even hardened and armed criminals would be smart enough to pick an easy target over a target that visibly has the means available to kill them.

Finally, if the criminal does not see the gun, or does choose to attack anyway, a firearm carried openly is easier and quicker to access. It is NOT a matter of training, as some have claimed - it is a matter of practicality and common sense. A firearm that only has be removed from a holster is quicker to get to than a person who has to first uncover that firearm from concealment.

I don't care if a person chooses to open or conceal carry. It's their choice to make. But I won't make statements that diminish a person's choice of carrying method to just "seeking attention" and scaring soccer mom's.

 

[JVaughn]

K-Rod makes a good point - there is no need to choose to intimidate people in whatever situation if you don't have to. I live in an OC / CC state and have never chosen to carry open in public. That being said, I believe that NavyLT was not suggesting that people should carry open; but that the government doesn't have the right to make that choice for us. I say if he or anyone else chooses to OC - that is their right and not the right of the government to regulate.

NavyLT - I'm with you 100%
"Shall not be infringed" means at all

 

[General Geoff]

I venture to believe the felons you spoke of that wouldn't attack a target because they knew the target had a gun, are the felons that are the opportunists. I don't believe the armed felons you care much at all because you would be on the ground before you knew what was happening. As the saying goes, "Locks are for honest people".

Career criminals are opportunists. Given the choice, they will always attack the unarmed target. They are looking for easy victims, not people who might open fire on them.

 

[JVaughn]

Secondly, we open carry as an example to others that it is acceptable, legal, and normal for an American to possess and carry a gun for self protection.

I agree on this point too. It used to be normal to see a man carrying a rifle down the road - you didn't think "criminal," you thought "hunter." A huge problem with this country today is the fact that uneducated people are afraid of guns. I never considered open carry as a means to try to change this - intriguing concept. I will have to look into your organization.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Career criminals are opportunists. Given the choice, they will always attack the unarmed target. They are looking for easy victims, not people who might open fire on them.

Which is exactly why they ARE career criminals! They don't make dumb decisions.

 

[hans471]

My opinions are, well, my opinions. I believe in the Second Amendment and support the efforts of all sane, law abiding Americans to maintain their right to own and lawfully use firearms. God knows I own more than my fair share! I do have a problem with this whole open carry thing however.

First, I am a CCDW permit holder in Kentucky. For those of you in other places, that is Concealed Carry Deadly Weapon. Here in Kentucky we have very friendly firearms and self protection laws. Common sense stuff for law abiding citizens. OC is legal here. While I support the right of a individual to self protection I also feel a responsibility to the general public. Perhaps it was my thirty years of being a teacher that makes me consider everyone's feelings and how best to compromise.

Like it or not many Americans (and most people around the world) when they see a person with a firearm on their side feel uneasy. I can't blame them for that, I have a wife that way. Some of her girlfriend are the same way. I understand, first hand, the thoughts they have on this. But, these same people feel comfortable, even safer, knowing I have a CCDW and if need be could protect them.

It is a personal thing with them and many others that they are uneasy with seeing firearms. Yet, when the firearm is out of sight the problem goes away. You will NOT re-educate these people by flashing guns at them, you will only make the situation worse. Fact is, if you constantly put public guns in front of them they would be far more likely to become anti-gun.

Sure, to us that seems silly. Read the comments here and you get this thing of "do it more and make them more comfortable as they get use to it" (wrong!) or, "its my right I don't care what they think" (Not the best way to win anyone's support!)

So, CC became the law in most places for this reason. It does not "scare" the populace. At the same time it allows us to protect ourselves, and it leaves the bad guys guessing which one of us is armed.

Some have made arguments that OC scares off the bad guys. Well, maybe. But the other side of that is that the bad guys now know where to get a nice new gun. Look at how many times bad guys have taken he guns away from police officers. Face it, if a bad guy (and his buddies) want your OC gun, they CAN take it away from you. You have just stuck it out in their face and shown them where to get it. If you think you are Superman and can outwit and overcome a group of experienced bad guys half your age and working as a team, you need a reality check.

So, I say, keep it out of sight, keep them guessing. To go with this, we don't need overly strict laws that nail us if someone just catches a glimpse of our piece showing. Again, here in Kentucky we are reasonable about that.

My best experience with CC perceptions came at a museum where I was working. We had a special meeting about what to do if a "shooter" was in the building. This was after the incident in DC where the man shot the guard and made his way inside. A police officer who specialized in this area came in and gave a very informative presentation on mass shootings. I could write a lot about that, but that is for another day. Anyway, the talk was about how to spot a possible shooter. Long coat, lumps in clothing, etc. trying to hide a firearm.

One of our security guards brought up that there might already be armed people in the building (to the shock of some in the group) as we had CCDW in Kentucky. He then went on to say that these were good, law abiding citizens who would actually an asset in a shooting situation. But the best part was when he told them not to worry, if they were truly CCDW permit holders the staff would never know it when they came in as, "their weapons would be out of sight". His point was, a good CCDW person would not want to alarm you as to their weapon yet would be there is trouble reared its ugly head.

I know there are many here who will argue that they have a God given and constitutional right to carry a weapon. I don't disagree. But I will say, that for me and many others, we are better off from a public relations standpoint if we just keep it handy but out of sight. It just makes people feel better and wins us more support in the court of public opinion. And me, I don't want to advertise to all the young punks out there that I have a nice, well maintained firearm on my side that they can help themselves to. Some crazy out there would just put a bullet in the back of your head and take it from you if they wanted it. Why show them ahead of time what you have worth taking?

Like I said at the beginning, this is my opinion and I know some will agree and others disagree.

 

[General Geoff]

It is a personal thing with them and many others that they are uneasy with seeing firearms. Yet, when the firearm is out of sight the problem goes away. You will NOT re-educate these people by flashing guns at them, you will only make the situation worse. Fact is, if you constantly put public guns in front of them they would be far more likely to become anti-gun.

These same people typically have zero issues with seeing police officers and their openly carried sidearms. I don't see why normal people would incite a different response.

But I will say, that for me and many others, we are better off from a public relations standpoint if we just keep it handy but out of sight.

Sounds like you'd be in favor of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy too. Keeping guns hidden does nothing for public relations.

And me, I don't want to advertise to all the young punks out there that I have a nice, well maintained firearm on my side that they can help themselves to. Some crazy out there would just put a bullet in the back of your head and take it from you if they wanted it.

You make it sound as if an open carrier is just a manikin with a gun strapped to it. A criminal would have to be certified crazy to attempt to jump an openly armed and alert individual.

Why show them ahead of time what you have worth taking?

Why wear an expensive watch? Why drive a nice car? Why wear a tailored suit? It's just showing that you have money and you will be targeted because of it.

I will not hide my sidearm in fear of miscreants who might foolishly try to take it from me.



ETA: In my years of carrying openly in a major metropolitan area, I can say that the vast majority of people don't even notice my sidearm. Out of those who do, most don't even give me a second glance, and the remainder almost always just nod, a few have struck up a conversation with me regarding guns and/or gun rights, and not one private citizen has come up to me telling me I should be concealing or that I shouldn't be carrying. I have had one police encounter where a local officer asked me to conceal, and I politely declined. He left me alone after that, and I haven't had another encounter since (this was about two years ago). In other words, open carry simply isn't the public relations nightmare that you make it out to be. People by & large don't care.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Everything the good General said above, especially his "ETA", plus....

Why show them ahead of time what you have worth taking?

More accurately would be, "Is what I have worth dying for?"

 

[Frank Ettin]

...In my years of carrying openly in a major metropolitan area, I can say that the vast majority of people don't even notice my sidearm. ... not one private citizen has come up to me telling me I should be concealing or that I shouldn't be carrying. ...open carry simply isn't the public relations nightmare that you make it out to be. People by & large don't care.

How do you really know that it's not a public relations nightmare? How do you really know that people don't care? You really don't.

Do you know that people aren't noticing your sidearm? The thing is that most folks have been taught that it's not polite to appear to notice things about other people on the street. Didn't your mother tell you that it's not polite to stare?

And of course no one is going to complain to you about your gun. You're armed. No one, especially someone who is afraid of guns, is going to risk provoking a confrontation.

The truth is that unless you can read minds, which I doubt you can, you have no idea what people are thinking about you and your gun. You're just guessing.