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Will You Continue to Support the SAF After Their Involvment in ManchinToomey ?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Bruno2, May 3, 2013.

?

Will You Continue to Support the SAF?

Poll closed Jun 2, 2013.
  1. Yes I will continue to Support The SAF

    30.2%
  2. No I will no Longer Support the SAF

    69.8%
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  1. lilguy

    lilguy Member

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    I've been a NRA lifer for over 30 years and a lifer in the ISRA for a while. I sent my first check to the SAF first of the year and was shocked they helped write. the Senate bill. Will refocus my attention on supporting GOA in the future.
     
  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    If being shorted on finally removing Schumer's blocking of restoration of rights for us (and so many government laws try to make us felons) was key to SAF/CCRKBA getting the other concessions happened to be the breaking point I'm glad they pulled out, but trading UBC (even a gutted one) for those benefits for us was a big risk to take in using the momentum from the propaganda campaign against us to perform some judo on the Antis.

    Depending on the House to clean up the language and prevent any harm was a chance also (a good bet, but still a gamble).

    It is clear now why Schumer wasn't at the M/T press conference if Gottleib was manouvering to take away one of his cornerstone "achievements" as an Anti.
     
  3. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    This bill is already back and another similar one is also coming. I'll wait and see what they do next before I pass judgement.
     
  4. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    Here is the $64k question: Will the SAF continue to try to help with legislation or did the black eye they received teach them a lesson?

    I can see where they were coming from , sort of. It's hard work beating these unfair laws in the courtroom so why not be there when they are being made? Kind of like doing right the first time.

    IMO the antis are like homeless people. You cant give them a cigarette when hey ask b/c they will just ask you for a dollar or another cigarette. Also every time they see you they will ask for a cigarette. There is no end to it. The antis already think they can get more gun control w/o compromising anything they have legislated in the past. So why would they look at a compromise this time?
     
  5. Pointshoot

    Pointshoot Member

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    How come 'compromise' is defined as the slow (or fast) grinding away of the 2nd Amendment over the decades ? This is equivalent to 'compromising' with a wolf who wants to eat you all at once, but you agree that he can only eat one limb or organ at a time.

    We have rights as men. They are not granted by any piece of paper or any government. The American founders knew that, but few Americans today seem to.

    The excuse used for all this is a fraud; many seem to have fallen for it. Rational thought and reasoned argument are no longer taught in the schools today. In fact, your odds of being the victim of a mass shooting are less than being struck by lightning, (just look up the 10 year stats on both events). Yet, there seems to be all manner of pro 2A people quite ready to 'compromise'.
    I have been supporting many more pro 2A groups over the last few months, (and have been a member of several of them for many years). Any of them that fall for Universal Background Checks are fools that do not know history. This will be the foundation of registration and eventual confiscation.

    I will wait to see how matters move forward. If SAF goes for UBC they lost me as a member. Winning all sorts of small cases is great; going along with UBC negates all of that IMO.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  6. jfh

    jfh Member

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    Just a reminder, as we work our way through this discussion

    of what was said a couples pages back by Walkalong:

    "Now we need to put the dagger in their heart by firing many antis in 2014. If we can do this, they will really be scared to touch gun control. I we don't, they will feel like they got away with pushing control without losing any jobs, which will ease their minds a bit."​

    Jim H.
     
  7. Pointshoot

    Pointshoot Member

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    IMO the real solution isn't in D.C. Both parties have overseen the slow and steady erosion of the 2nd Amendment and the entire US Constitution. Better to focus on the state and local level including nullification of un Constitutional law. The American founders focused on local power in government. Local means that you can keep a better eye on them and can better voice your objections, and force change when needed.
     
  8. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Be careful about outright dropping support for the SAF, or any other strong second amendment advocates.

    Let's first be sure of our facts before jumping the gun.

    Then, if the facts seem to be counter to the spirit of the SAF (which is, of course, to be a strong second amendment advocate), we need to take action to get them back on track.

    Remember that one very powerful tool for those who would restrict or eliminate our second amendment right is "divide and conquer". Producing schisms in the organizations which we depend upon to project our voices in powerful, no-nonsense ways is one of them. Don't let them do this.

    One has only to look toward such tactics in Australia to see how successful that was.

    Don't toss the SAF under the bus just yet...rather, kick their rear ends as necessary to get them back on track, if they should actually wander off the beaten trail.
     
  9. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    That's right Johnny! The talking heads on Face the Nation this morning are convinced that the job loss and Senate loss in 1994 wasn't due to the gun control vote. We know better and we aim to show them different in 2014.
     
  10. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    The poll will be open for another couple of weeks.
     
  11. Johannes_Paulsen

    Johannes_Paulsen Member

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  12. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    That statement is very ironic. I think Gottlieb was the one who got snookered.

    Thanks for posting the link Johannes!
     
  13. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Based on a single news article I read at the time, Schumer did not appear because Pat Toomey didn't want him at the conference because he knew he would be seeing that in political ads during his next reelection.

    Technically, it was the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) that was involved in the drafting. This was another group led by Gottlieb and they share a lot of staff and mailing lists in common with SAF. SAF just supported the action from their closely related group.
     
  14. Rugerspyderon

    Rugerspyderon Member

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    I think Alan was trying to move the ball forward. Being on the defensive is not always the best tactic. The Trojan horse approach makes sense, I believe he could have gotten what he wanted but we called too much attention to it. It was like having a neon sign on the Trojan horse of Troy as it was wheeled into the gates. Alan and Alan have more than earned our support. I doubt any of us on this thread have done as much, outside of the battlefield, to protect our 2nd amendment rights as those two.
     
  15. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    He tried to compromise. They didn't want it. Never again. Let's move on with standing firm on the 2nd.
     
  16. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The facts do not support that analysis. Every single anti-gun politician voted for the Amendment. Schumer gave an impassioned speech on the floor of the Senate begging Senators to vote for it. Bloomberg and Biden threw their support behind it. The bill was defeated by the pro-rights crowd, not because the antis backed away from it.

    To use your analogy, it would be like the Greeks fighting to drag the horse out of Troy after it was already safely behind the walls.

    Heck, Biden is still out there stumping for it even after it has been defeated in a Democratic controlled Senate. They are not the least bit concerned about Gottlieb's support for it and they sure don't think they are the suckers in the deal.
     
  17. hnk45acp

    hnk45acp Member

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    Maybe it'll be a "teachable moment" for the SAF
     
  18. Johannes_Paulsen

    Johannes_Paulsen Member

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    Posting this because it's somewhat on topic.... via Sebastian at Shall Not Be Questioned, the left-wing Think Progress blog is reporting that CCRKBA was handing out materials at the NRA show in Houston defending parts of Manchin-Toomey. From Think Progress:

    Don't know the veracity of this (Sebastian says he did not stop at CCRKBA's booth in Houston.) I report, you decide.
     
  19. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    Don't get me wrong , I can see how a UBC could help. However, the entire deal is just too sticky. I can see it causing more problems for the law abiding than it will solve. We just don't need another gun law on the books that will incriminate people if not followed.

    We still have some time left before the poll closes, but it certainly looks like the CCRKBA/SAF didn't do themselves any favors with their support for the bill.

    I certainly hope they get the message because it's very sad that an org that has done this much for our cause has lost this much support.
     
  20. phil dirt

    phil dirt Member

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    Gottlieb did not support a registry in Washington state. In fact, he tried to cut a deal that would have, if passed, done away with our Washington state pistol registry which is filed with the local police agency and kept by them. It didn't pass because the cops were not willing to give up the pistol registry, which is separate from the 4473.

    Gottlieb has done a lot of good work for gun owners in the past, and I will continue to support him.

    I well remember that a bunch of you guys got on your high horse and refused to vote for Romney. So now we've got Obama, who is even worse! Sometimes we only have a choice between the bad and the ugly.
     
  21. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    I understand. The biggest problem with Mitt was that he already did a big ban on firearms in MA.BO just had the talking part down.

    I am truly torn on the CCRKBA/SAF situation. They have done a lot. They don't seem to be as diligent about polling their members about views as some other pro rkba orgs are. At least I haven't heard of or stumbled across any. Their base could very well be in the majority of supporting UBC's. However, I am not. One of the reasons I started the poll was to see if they have lost support. Also I wanted some sort of public feedback for anyone interested to have a look at. I would think that an org like theirs would be interested in what their base has for opinions since that is who is funding the operation.
     
  22. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    Their feedback will be reflected in their future donation rates.
     
  23. Johannes_Paulsen

    Johannes_Paulsen Member

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    @Bruno2- it would be interesting to see how many of the people voting "no" in your poll actually had supported SAF with donations in the past?
     
  24. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    I was thinking the exact same thing Johannes just the other day. The thought crossed my mind that some of the people voting may have never been members to start with. However, even future prospects being turned off will indeed effect donations. I had them friended on my FB and always encouraged people to support them. I couldn't say enough good things about them. One day I logged onto FB and saw the video and explanation of what they had done with the UBC bill and I flew off the handle.

    I think we need some answers from the org. I want to know if they will push their agenda regardless of what their members think or if the base has any stroke? Also Do they care at all how their supporters feel. Are they using people or are they doing the peoples work? I completely understand that my views may not match everyones to a tee, but there are a few of my views that must be supported in order to get my coin. NO UBC crap at all will be tolerated and certain weapons are not to be viewed more dangerous than others .
     
  25. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    I have finally decided to withhold my money for a little while, at least 6 months and maybe longer if there is something else proposed that I want to watch them closely on.
    Hopefully the drop in income will show them where we stand, but they have done enough good in the past I am willing to give them another shot. But one more shot is all they get, thin ice form now on.


    I voted yes, would have liked to have voted....probably, but not right now.
     
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