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Will You Now Reconsider?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by NIGHTWATCH, Jun 25, 2005.

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  1. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    Stemming from this thread http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144349

    Given the steady decline of our freedoms, is there a chance now for the Libertarian Party? :confused:

    The decline is steady. Will the American voter see the light as all reasoning in favor of sustaining the two party system begins to fade?
     
  2. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

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    I think if the libertarian party would field serious candidates instead of people who are seen as whackos by the majority of America, they might have a chance. That is, If they had some money for advertising. If they would push for more public awareness.

    I do think it's time for a third party.

    But, what do I know, I'm just a stupid Libertarian who "wastes" my vote instead of choosing an evil.

    Sorry, I'm feeling rather bitter this morning.
     
  3. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    I understand.
     
  4. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    The biggest impediment to the Libertarian party growing is their opinion that drugs should be legalized. I understand their argument, and I agree with them, at least on a theoretical basis, to some degree.

    However, you will never convince Mr. and Mrs. Joe Sixpack that drugs should be made legal. The government has pushed the idea that drugs should be illegal for at least 3 generations now, and public opinion is unlikely to change any time soon.

    Until they lose this plank on their platform, the libertarians are doomed to stand on the sidelines.

    Secondly, the Libertarian Party needs to pick candidates who understand at least the basics of hygeine: showers, shaving, and brushing of the teeth go a long way. Some of the people I have seen who were Libertarians appear to have only recently moved out from underneath a bridge somewhere.

    I do not believe the Libertarian Party, in its present form, has any future.
     
  5. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Disagree. My parents are both card-carrying members of the Republican party, as well as Focus on the Family. Despite this, both of them have recently come to the conclusion that the War on Drugs isn't such a bright idea.

    Now, if two fifty-something, dyed-in-the-wool members of the religious right can come to this conclusion, anyone can.

    Personally, though, I agree that the LP needs to drop legalization as their main issue. They'd probably garner much more support if they were to pick up on an issue pretty much everyone deals with- namely taxes, or more recently, property rights/emminent domain issues.
     
  6. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    Other ideas pushed by government: That abortion is protected under the Constitution; that the Ten Commandments can't be displayed on public property; that you can get away with murder if a cop fails to read you your rights before you spill your guts; that confiscating your hard-earned money to redistribute it to lazy-assed welfare scum is permissible under the Constitution; etc, etc.

    And don't forget that the people who protray the Libertarians as wackos are the same people trying to protect their own power base.

    But not to worry, most people who would otherwise vote Libertarian won't, because they don't want to "waste their vote."
     
  7. Rebar

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    There is a great opportunty for third parties to make real progress.

    However, the sheer incompetence of the libertarian party practically guarenteees it won't be them that takes advantage of it.

    30 years, and they haven't elected anyone of concequence, even the socialists have someone in the US house, they don't even have someone in a STATE rep or senate seat. If you can't get a state seat in 30 years of trying, that's rediculous.

    They'd rather throw their time, money, and effort away on useless presidential bids, rather than build a real political grass-roots power base. The libertarians just don't have the will, discipline, and patience needed to be a real contender.
     
  8. BeLikeTrey

    BeLikeTrey Guest

    I have apologized for my wasted vote opinion

    and do so in this thread as well. I was wrong and freely admit it.

    Now about my new party and some advice... strictly literal constitutional interpretation no kookie platform on drugs etc. I feel it is better not to have a stance on this than to have this legalize drugs stance.

    again sorry about my wasted votes posts in the past. If Bush or the rest of the govt goofballs were against it (from either party) they'dve said so. Time for a group that is. Note to libertarians: LATCH ON TO THIS! THIS HAS ACROSS THE BOARD SUPPORT FROM BOTH PARTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. this is a groundbreaking issue and the supreme court has provided an opportunity here for the third party to take off.
     
  9. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    I have my doubts that the two major parties would allow another party to seriously challenge their monopoly. Too much money and power are at stake.
     
  10. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    I disagree, a serious party with a solid long term plan can succeed. It's just that none of the current third parties have any plan at all that can be discerned.

    As for "throwing away votes", I'm not going to validate someone's incompetence and stupidity for running a no-name Joe Shmoe every four years, when they can't get a dog catcher elected. It's up to them to run a viable candidate and campaign if they want my vote. And they'll never have a viable candidate, because they won't put the time and effort into building a state base.

    Right now, you're better off working from within a party:
    http://www.rlc.org/
    then pinning your hopes on the proven incompetence and plain sillyness of the current crop of third parties.
     
  11. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

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    From the American Party website
    Timeline

    The problem is voter apathy. Even here on THR, I've tried to get people interested. Overwhelmingly, the answer has been, "Well, xxxx won't work, and I disagree with yyyy." The whole premise of theAmerican Party was voter input and building a party based on solid American principles which we would decide upon within the party. Nobody wants to put forth the effort. Apathy. Folks, as a whole, would rather whine and complain than do something to change their situation. If one is willing to make the appropriate sacrifices, and put forth the required effort, great things are possible. Most I've spoken with in my generation don't understand how I left behind poverty and a poor family life, and at the age of 29, own a 1700 sq ft home with no mortgage. Positive achievements are a result of hard work and self-sacrifice. Americans aren't familiar with that concept anymore, it seems.
    Time and time again, I've seen folks here on THR try to get movements, letter campaigns, demonstrations going. The overwhelming response has been a big fat fizzle. Apathy.
    Rant off.
     
  12. SIOP

    SIOP Member

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    I agree that the Libertarian party is not perfect and stands for some things I don't necessarily agree with, but they're head and shoulders above the Republicans and Democrats in my view.
     
  13. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    I have long believed that the two party system has outlived any usefulness it may once have had. My father has been dead for more than 20 years and I used to have this very discussion with him. He was a staunch Rebublican, though, so he simply would not concede (in fact, I believe he would not see at all) that the party system is in place to preserve the positions and privileges of those who hold power in the party ... not to better represent the people.

    But ... Libertarian? Not in this lifetime. As noted, Libertarians are mostly eccentric nut cases, and that includes my own cousins who (last I knew) were rabid Libertarians.

    The best thing that could possibly happen to this country (but won't) would be to abolish parties entirely, and ask/demand/force anyone who wishes to run for any office to fund their own campaign or generate their own support base. "You have to support ___ because he's a Republican" (even though the Democrat may be clearly smarter, more honest, and more dedicated to the constituency) is ridiculous.

    We should be voting for people and their ideas, not for parties and "platforms."
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2005
  14. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    I like the idea of eliminating political parties. But you think either the Dems or Repubs are going to propose thast? Thought not. Maybe even go back to first place takes President, and second takes VP.

    As for the libretarians, nope. They may be the most viable third party, but that still isn't saying much. They are pretty incompetent, as others have mentioned. I don't see the point in spend lots of money to get a President elected, when with a little bit of effort and redirection of those funds, they probably could fill lots of house seats.
     
  15. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Americas Party ain't done yet, fj. I'm trying to get some new software uploaded now so i can work on it again and I am thinking of actually shelling out the cash to get a website guru to work some magic. If ever there was a time for a Third party to at least scare the pants off the Big Two this is it...

    And if it can't get attention under these circumstances then I at least have a definitve answer: America is too lazy to screw with trying to save.
     
  16. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

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    Yeah, didn't actually mean to use the past tense, there. I'm just so darned bitter this morning, it's hard to think straight. Keep me posted, eh?
     
  17. Brett Bellmore

    Brett Bellmore Member

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    Third party? Not a chance.

    I was with the LP from nearly the beginning, joined back in the late '70s. But I was enough of a realist to understand that as soon as we became a real threat to one of the major parties, they'd pass laws to effectively outlaw us. The only chance we really had was to grow so fast that we were too big to kill before they realized the threat.

    Didn't happen.

    They've now passed enough campaign "reforms", and put enough other defenses in place, like "bipartisan" debate organizations, to make the third party route impossible. The reason the LP is full of nutjobs, is that the non-nutty Libertarians knew it was "game over" for the third party movement, and left. Either set out to work within one of the major parties, or outside the party structure in think tanks, or just got on with their lives.

    And it isn't really that easy to work within the established parties, either; They've got defenses set up there, too. The people running the parties have no intention of letting the peons seize control.
     
  18. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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  19. Kamicosmos

    Kamicosmos Member

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    Me too.

    I do wish the LP would focus more on state level elections. In Missouri this last time, the LP did pretty well. A young lady ran for state treasurer, and got something like 70,000+ votes, which secured the LP on the ballot for future elections, no more petitions to be on the ballot! Pretty impressive considering she is 23, never ran for office, and her campaign was a website, grass root movement, and a couple radio ads!

    Now that's a start!

    I too don't agree with some of the issues of the LP, but I agree with more of thier stances on issues than I do with Rep/Dem platforms. I'd like to consider the Constituition party as well, but they are a bit too religious for me...

    Last time a 3rd party was a viable threat to the 2 main parties was in the early 1900's when Teddy Roosevelt ran under the Independents, I think.
     
  20. Rebar

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    Again I disagree.

    The problem is, it's easy to talk a great game, but people want results. Results in this case means, running candidates and getting them elected. Not presidential candidates, at least not at first, but state reps, state senators, then a governor. Success breeds success, start small and build from there. No one respects someone who shows up out of the blue, and demands the top job. That's why governors win the presidentcy most of the time, they have a proven track record of at least that much acheivement. And that's why the libertarian party has failed miserably, they failed at building up the critical local power base, as will any other third party that does not learn this lesson.

    For example, why should I give "Americas Party" the time of day? How many candidates have they run, how many won? Do they have the finances, organization, quality candidates, and achevable plans to make effective and viable campaigns for getting a majority in a state legislature? Then a solid chance at the govenorship? So far, I see none of that.

    And again I say, for the forseeable future, more progress can be had by working within the republican party to push them more towards a libertarian/conservative agenda, then wasting time, money, and votes on incompetent losers.
     
  21. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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  22. Kamicosmos

    Kamicosmos Member

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    Hillbilly,

    I agree with you on their border policy, and really hope they revise it. I have heard they are doing just that.

    The drug issue and the border issue are the big things I disagree with LP on.



    I'm undecided on legalization of drugs. It's a good theory, and there are many laws in place already to control, say Driving under the influence, but we know how that goes. I don't think making Heroin easier and cheaper to get is going to help anything. But, the war on drugs is: A joke, ineffective, expensive, and costing us civil liberties. I dunno.

    The border....well, sheesh. Everytime this topic comes up at THR, it makes me want to leave THR! sigh. I am a strong Isolationist, and would be perfectly happy with a large wall extending across both borders! But, that apparently makes me a racist to many of the members here. I support LEGAL immigration. But just opening the border wide open/granting amnesty to current illegals/eliminating passports...I don't support that. And it has nothing to do with racisim/xenophobia.
     
  23. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Border security has nothing whatsoever to do with racism.

    If you don't have a border, you don't have a country.

    Immigrants who come here legally, who are granted resident alien status, who are seeking US citizenship are wonderful in my opinion.

    They bring vibrancy. Oftentimes, it's the real legal immigrants who come from repressive countries who are the ones to truly understand and appreciate freedom. Oleg Volk is a prime example.

    As another example, I cite is my very good friend Khos, who was the first Mongolian in the US Marine Corps, who is now a fully-fledged, bona-fide, oath-taking US citizen with all the rights and freedoms guaranteed therein. He is the ultimate example, I think, of the value and power of legal immigration.

    But millions who come here illegally, who don't assimilate, who don't learn English, who still consider their homes to be other countries, who aren't really looking for freedom and citizenship, but just a paycheck to be largely mailed back to their real country of residence?

    That's a recipe for losing the country.

    And until the Libertarians fix their platform on that issue, they are political loons unworthy of any serious consideration in my view.

    hillbilly
     
  24. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    +1 to that.

    Did you know that the Mexican army patrols their southern border to keep central americans out? Does that make them racist too? No, just hypocrits.
     
  25. Sam

    Sam Member

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    I think most of us could tolerate the LP if they did away with the idiotic policy on immigration and the border.

    Drug legalization is not as big an issue as most want to make it.

    Until the LP runs some candidates in the general elections their chances are nil. Run the local and state elections for the visibility and to build credibility and they might have a chance.

    Personally, I only vote for people and don't do parties at all.

    Sam
     
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