Williams Fool Proof on Lever Guns

[Dr T]

I have Williams FP sights mounted on a Marlin 1894 44 Magnum with a 20" barrel and a Winchester Model 94 Trapper 30-30 with a 16.5" barrel.

The Williams web site manual says that one click is about 0.15 MOA for both windage and elevation depending on the sight radius. If my arithmetic is ok, I make this to be about 0.05 MIL (or about 1/8 inch at 100 yards) per click DEPENDING on Sight Radius and height of sight above bore. I seem to recall that I had to put higher front sight on the Model 94 (and maybe the Marlin) years ago just to get on paper.

My questions are:

1. Is this about right?
2, How do the click values change based on the sight radii and heights?
3. What would be the suggested sight in at 50 yds for this pair for about 125 yd zero?
4. Should I just play around with them until I am about 1" to 1.5" high and 100 yards and not worry about it?

I don't want to measure with a micrometer something that I am going to cut with an ax, but I don't want to waste too much ammo. I will be using full power factory loads in both. But they are working, not target guns.

 

[Rodfac]

I have a Williams Fool Proof on two of my Marlins. The .41 Mag 1894S in the first pic below, has a 20" bbl. While the M39 .22 cal. Century Limited below that, is 18.5" IIRC. The barrel lengths will affect the amount of impact movement for each click. The shorter the barrel, the more movement will be observed for each click. As I recall, each click is 1/4 MOA (~1/4") of movement at 100 yds. (I could be wrong as its been several years since I sighted it in.)

I was able to use the factory front sight on the 1894S, but had to install a taller front for the M39 CL.

I sight the .41 in for a "tip top of the bead" point of impact at 75 yds, which allows for a 1" low impact at 100 yds and sight in the Century Limited .22 for a "tip top of the bead" impact point at 50 yds. But rather than counting clicks for a given change, I give the adj. screws a 6-8 click turn, and see what I get, zeroing first at 25 yds. Knowing that with a zeroed group at that range, the rising then falling bullet trajectory will result initially in a higher impact farther out; eventually re-crossing the sight line as the round begins to fall. Obviously, the same 6-8 clicks will triple the impact change at 75 yds.

Once roughly zeroed for 25 yds, I move out to my desired long range zero, 75 & 50 yds, respectively. Obviously, this is cheaper with .22 LR's, but considerably more expensive with a centerfire cartridge. I reload, so the costs of doing it this way are not prohibitive.

Your option 4 will work well I'd say. But as you know, the trajectory of a .30-30 bullet is much flatter than a .44 Magnum. For my Marlin .30-30, I zero for 2" high at 100 yds; with scope sighting. For the .44 Magnum, I zero for 100 yds dead on; which will allow me easy shots to 125 yds using it's Williams WGRS peep and a fiber optic red front sight. This latter is one hellofa deer in the timber combination, and is my #1 choice where I have to help track a blood trail through our KY thickets.

HTH's and best regards, Rod

​

 

[Dr T]

Given the minuscule angles involved, is a 4" difference in sight radius significant for practical purposes?

 

[JohnKSa]

1. Is this about right?
2, How do the click values change based on the sight radii and heights?
3. What would be the suggested sight in at 50 yds for this pair for about 125 yd zero?
4. Should I just play around with them until I am about 1" to 1.5" high and 100 yards and not worry about it?

1. Williams has been doing this a lot of years. I think they are going to put you in the ballpark.
2. The shorter the sight radius, the more the point of impact will move for a given adjustment amount. Sight heights will not affect this, although they may affect your ability to zero. Aperture sights are higher than typical rear sights, so it may be necessary to put a higher front sight on (to "match" the higher rear sight) in order to get the gun zeroed.
3. I think it's going to be different for the two guns because the trajectories of the two cartridges are so different.
4. Same as the answer for #3.

Ok, back to the sight radius issue.

I'm going to estimate that the sight radii on your rifles are about 4" longer than the barrel length. Using that estimate, the shorter rifle has a sight radius of about 20.5" and the longer rifle has a sight radius of about 24".

I don't know what sight radius length Williams used, but I have to use something, so I'm going to estimate that they are assuming the barrel is about 20" long, so they are basing their sight calculations on a 24" sight radius--like your longer rifle.

If that's true, then they are saying that one click is about 0.025mm of sight movement--that's what would be required to move the point of impact on target by about 0.15MOA (about 0.075" at 50 yards, or about 0.15" at 100yards).

With the shorter rifle, that same amount of sight movement would be expected to change the point of impact on target by about 0.17MOA. That's about 0.085" at 50 yards or about 0.17" at 100 yards.

<<Corrected an error.>>

 

[Wolfshead]

If it were me I would play around with it and see what works for your rifle.
(that’s what I’ve done, as I use my handloads, and those can be different than factory, and such.)
I would suggest getting what you want at 100 yards, and then shooting it at maybe 75, then 50, and then at 25 just to see POI for each distance.
i feel that would be the easiest thing to do in my opinion.

 

[Tentwing]

Williams also makes a Firesight . It is adjustable for windage and elevation. I have them on several of my Marlin 39a’s and one Marlin 336 in a 30-30. They are great for aging eyes.

 

[Charlie98]

Ooooo.... Williams peeps!?!?

Love me some Williams peeps....

I will say... and maybe I'm missing something here... the index marks on the side are for reference only, you will have to dope out your own settings and ranges based on your rifle, and the ammos you are shooting.

Index marks?!?! We don't need no index marks...

This is my Browning 71, in .348WCF. I had the peep jacked up as far as I could go and still keep it in the receiver... I was shooting 900yds. I actually wasn't using the peep aperture, I put the front sight post on TOP of the peep. Yes, it worked.

 

[DMW1116]

I emailed Williams about the adjustment to. They said one turn of the knob is 1/40th of an inch. The detent in the knobs has 20 clicks per turn. These are very small adjustments. I can’t help with zeroing. I have my 336 set up for reduced cast loads and zero typically at 50 yards.

 

[Charlie98]

I have my 336 set up for reduced cast loads and zero typically at 50 yards.

That's why I made the comment about having to dope it yourself... adjustment detents mean nothing, per se, other than a reference mark.

 

[DMW1116]

I really lucked out. With the FP at the bottom plus one turn, my full power loads are 3” high at 100 yards. I thought I might have to get a new front sight blade but it worked out for me.

 

[Charlie98]

I really lucked out. With the FP at the bottom plus one turn, my full power loads are 3” high at 100 yards. I thought I might have to get a new front sight blade but it worked out for me.

I have that picture of my Browning 71 right there... the one with the sight jacked out. One of the reasons I have to do that is... zeroed at 100yds, it's already set at 7... because of the height of the FSB. I could gain a bit more adjustment if I drove a shorter FSB in, but I'm reluctant to start Bubba'ing up my rifle.

 

[DMW1116]

I’m not familiar with the rifle you mentioned in terms of the front sight assembly. I was able to remove the old bead front sight on the Marlin and add back a Skinner Patridge blade, then file it down to zero for my full power loads and still have enough for cast loads to 200 probably, though I’ve not tried that far.