Win 1894, is the front sight too low?

[Riomouse911]

Hey all, I went to the outdoor range for the first time in a while. I brought along four hand loads for my 3,000,000 series Win 94 .30-30;

160 gr FTX over 35.5 gr LeveRevolution.
150 gr Hornady RN over 37.5 gr LeveRevolution.
150 gr Xtreme plated over 31gf IMR 3031.
A older mystery load using 100 gr Speer semi jacketed plinkers.

I was shooting open sights and just ran these targets out to 50 yards.

Every one I fired was at least 8” to 10” high at 50, even with the rear sight ladder at its lowest setting. Wind was a steady breeze blowing R to L, probably pushing everything left a bit more.

I was shooting with the front sight bead covering the lower circle, the shots were all hitting in the circle right above it.

Hornady 150: (High flyer was most likely me)


160 gr FTX:



Xtreme 150 gr plated (5 shots, flyer again my fault). Ignore the 5 in the lower circle, those are the plinkers mentioned below.


And the plinker load (the rifle hated these.) I was holding below the paper to hit this one.


So, should I look for a .120” to 150” taller front sight?

Thanks for any help.

Stay safe.

 

[GooseGestapo]

We need a picture of the front sight.
Likely, the front sight was broken and replaced with a new blade that’s too short.
I’m not at home so I can’t measure the blade on my rifles.
I’m thinking a .225 might be correct.

 

[d2wing]

It should be high at 50 yards.

 

[Dr T]

If you are using the buckhorn sight, you may want to consider replacing it with a blank and putting a Williams Fool Proof or other receiver sight on first.

 

[ms6852]

Measure the height of the front sight to the center of the barrel. For example a sight height of one inch, from 50 yards your POA will be about 2 to 3 inches high and about one inch at 200 yards

 

[Riomouse911]

We need a picture of the front sight.
Likely, the front sight was broken and replaced with a new blade that’s too short.
I’m not at home so I can’t measure the blade on my rifles.
I’m thinking a .225 might be correct.

Measure the height of the front sight to the center of the barrel. For example a sight height of one inch, from 50 yards your POA will be about 2 to 3 inches high and about one inch at 200 yards

I’ll pull it out of the safe in a bit and check. I have two other 20” 1894’s in .30-30 to compare it to in case it’s a different sight blade. (The 16” trapper .44 is a different setup.)

The other similar guns I have shoot roughly 2“ high at 50 to account for the rainbow trajectories out to 100-125 or so. (My self imposed max with these open sighted guns.)

If you are using the buckhorn sight, you may want to consider replacing it with a blank and putting a Williams Fool Proof or other receiver sight on first.

I have Skinner, Williams or Lyman’s on a few of my other lever guns, including the 1894 trapper. This is an untapped pre-AE model, so peep sight mounting isn’t quite as simple as that one was. But, if I can’t get it closer to where it should be with a blade change, then I will certainly head down the peep sight path.

Back in a bit.

 

[Slamfire]

Looks like your 150 grain load is good.

Six to eight inches high at 50 yards is unacceptably high for a 30-30. However, my experience with my Marlin 336 is that different bullet weight, different powder, and the group picks up and moves to a different time zone!. These lever actions are as springy as a trampoline.

Example:

One MOA up at 100 yards

minus 4 MOA down at 100 yards

minus 6 MOA at 100 yards.

Minus 3 MOA down at 200 yards.

Incidentally, my chamber is huge and the bullet has to jump a half inch to touch the rifling! It is my opinion these rifles were made to shoot well with 150's at 2250 fps and 170's at 2150-2200 fps. Also, my loads are what it took to get to those velocities considering I have a huge chamber and it takes more powder to get the bullet to factory velocities than a standard chamber requires. It is worth taking a chronograph to the range and find out the speed of your bullets. Also, might want to find out how far your bullet has to jump till it touches rifling. With a half inch bullet jump, nothing I am going to do will ever make this a 1.5 MOA rifle. Marlin made these 30-30's for the 50 yard hunter who uses factory ammunition, shoots one box of ammunition to sight the thing in, and does that once. And then never cleans the rifle till his grand kids get it in the estate settlement.

Stay with 150's and IMR 3031. IMR 3031 did very well in my Marlin and I read somewhere that it was a factory gunpowder. When you find a load that groups well, adjust your sight so the point of impact is where you want it, and don't change nothing. Ever!

 

[Riomouse911]

OK, I pulled out the two near-identical rifles. The one on the left is the 3,000,000 series gin I was shooting, the other a 5,000,000 gun. Both work great, the only difference is the 5-mil gun has a bit of bluing thinning and missing bluing on the barrel bands from what looks like riding about in a gun rack. (I got it used from a pawn shop in Reno, it probably was a working gun out on the sheep range for a while.)




The 5-mil gun front sight, using a bright light to try and illuminate the blade.

3-mil gun:


Both sights look identical in size and shape. I can’t see any bends or oddities in the hoods from being removed, or signs the front sights were replaced.

Height, as close as my eyeball can level, on the 5-mil gun:

And 3- mil gun:


Both sit right about 2cm from top of sight to center of the bore, which my google-fu says is .787 inch.

I don’t know if this helps or not.

(Next time I shoot, I’m taking the 5-mil gun and the same targets & ammo to see if that gun is this far off, too.)

Thanks for any help!

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

Looks like your 150 grain load is good.

Six to eight inches high at 50 yards is unacceptably high for a 30-30. However, my experience with my Marlin 336 is that different bullet weight, different powder, and the group picks up and moves to a different time zone!. These lever actions are as springy as a trampoline.

Example:

One MOA up at 100 yards

minus 4 MOA down at 100 yards

minus 6 MOA at 100 yards.

Minus 3 MOA down at 200 yards.

Incidentally, my chamber is huge and the bullet has to jump a half inch to touch the rifling! It is my opinion these rifles were made to shoot well with 150's at 2250 fps and 170's at 2150-2200 fps. Also, my loads are what it took to get to those velocities considering I have a huge chamber and it takes more powder to get the bullet to factory velocities than a standard chamber requires. It is worth taking a chronograph to the range and find out the speed of your bullets. Also, might want to find out how far your bullet has to jump till it touches rifling. With a half inch bullet jump, nothing I am going to do will ever make this a 1.5 MOA rifle. Marlin made these 30-30's for the 50 yard hunter who uses factory ammunition, shoots one box of ammunition to sight the thing in, and does that once. And then never cleans the rifle till his grand kids get it in the estate settlement.

Stay with 150's and IMR 3031. IMR 3031 did very well in my Marlin and I read somewhere that it was a factory gunpowder. When you find a load that groups well, adjust your sight so the point of impact is where you want it, and don't change nothing. Ever!

My 336 is a .35 Remington wearing a simple 4x32 scope. This gun shoots really well for a lever gun at 100yds. I am not the world’s biggest fan of scoped lever guns, but it shoots so well I’ll never change it. (Especially with the pointed 150 gr Rem Cor-Lokt, single loaded of course.)

Once I get this .30-30 dialed in, I don’t think I’ll switch a thing.

Stay safe.

 

[Wolfshead]

This is my model 94 and shots at 50 yards with my handloads of 36 grains of Leverevolution and 160 grain FTX bullets.
To be clear I have a Williams foolproof peep on my rifle.
The upper left shot was my fault.
The black target was sitting on top of my front bead.
Have you considered letting someone else have a “shot” at shooting your rifle to see how it shoots with them?
It does seem that the front sight needs to be taller, and adding a Williams as has been suggested might help to not need a change in front sight?
Please, no scope! Scopes are for Marlins!

 

[ms6852]

After re-reading your post and re-examining your pictures it appears the shot groups are where they are supposed to be. They are averaging about 2 to 3 inches above the bullseye, unless you were aiming at the lower target which then would explain the 8 inch to 10 inch reference you made. Were you aiming at the bottom target or the target where the bullets holes are? I believe the squares are one inch squares so with that front sight and the poi of the shot group that rifle is good to 200 yards, you just need to adjust for windage by moving the rear sight or front .

I do see inconsistencies in sight picture and cheek weld. It may appear that you need to practice more with open sights and try to concentrate what you sight picture was at the moment you shot your first round and lock it to memory for the following shots regardless of the poi. Only then can we begin to establish more consistent groups. As far as I am concerned the sights are fine, per the first 2 shot groups , the following shot groups with the shotgun pattern is what makes me think that your sight picture is not the same.

 

[ECVMatt]

I think you’re pretty close. I’m already out the door or I would’ve grabbed my Winchester to give it a go for comparison. Are you able to shoot it at 100 yards? That might be a better measure for your sights. On my Marlins, I usually replace the sites with some type of peep/ghost ring sights so it’s hard to tell as they will zero wherever I want. I do have my original sights on the Winchester, but haven’t fired it in a while.

 

[Riomouse911]

After re-reading your post and re-examining your pictures it appears the shot groups are where they are supposed to be. They are averaging about 2 to 3 inches above the bullseye, unless you were aiming at the lower target which then would explain the 8 inch to 10 inch reference you made. Were you aiming at the bottom target or the target where the bullets holes are? I believe the squares are one inch squares so with that front sight and the poi of the shot group that rifle is good to 200 yards, you just need to adjust for windage by moving the rear sight or front .

I do see inconsistencies in sight picture and cheek weld. It may appear that you need to practice more with open sights and try to concentrate what you sight picture was at the moment you shot your first round and lock it to memory for the following shots regardless of the poi. Only then can we begin to establish more consistent groups. As far as I am concerned the sights are fine, per the first 2 shot groups , the following shot groups with the shotgun pattern is what makes me think that your sight picture is not the same.

Yes, the bead was right on the lower target. The upper one is 8” above the lower.

And you are correct, I do need to work on cheek weld consistency and proper positioning with all of my rifle shooting. I admit that this is one of my weak spots, and I really do need to work on it.

Stay safe.

 

[dieselchief]

accu-riser makes some nice leather cheek pieces to help with that.

 

[ms6852]

Yes, the bead was right on the lower target. The upper one is 8” above the lower.

And you are correct, I do need to work on cheek weld consistency and proper positioning with all of my rifle shooting. I admit that this is one of my weak spots, and I really do need to work on it.

Stay safe.

I would consider one more thing before you decide to use a taller front sight. Have another or two more shooters shoot your rifle if the outcome is the same as yours then a taller front sight should be purchased if not , then you are the problem. Please let us know what you decided on.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Give us a close up pic of the rear sight.
You may have an adjustable rear sight inset.
If so, lower it before replacing the front sight. From the pics, you have the correct front sights.

 

[himfeld]

This target helped me out a lot with open sights.

Dead Center - Iron/Open Sight Paper Shooting Targets - 19"x25"

Shop for Dead Center 19"x25" paper shooting targets designed for pistol and rifle iron/open sights. Bright quality targets for range training. Free shipping

www.thompsontarget.com

 

[zeke]

When sighting in lever guns, a lot can depend on how you are aligning the front bead and rear site, and how you are holding/resting the rifle on the bench. Even at short ranges, have taken to using a large diam (5 to 6 in) solid circle on white paper. Then aim at the bottom of the circle. The front bead is bottomed in the bottom circular cut of the rear, aiming with the bottom of the target circle just above the top of front bead. Yes. am not so good at explaining things. The hand guard is gripped by hand, which is pushed lightly into sand bag in front of hand (with out barrel or hand guard touching sand bag). Am adjusting sights on 100 yd guns so poi is immediately above poa. And yes this just the way i do it, certainly doesn't men it is correct, proper or the only way. Have found that of more than a couple of lever actions sighted in, it was easier for my purposes. They're not bench rest rifles. Use slightly different method for large caliber pistol carbines, with the poi right below smaller circle at 25 yds, and front bead covering smaller circle at 100 yds.

 

[Riomouse911]

Give us a close up pic of the rear sight.
You may have an adjustable rear sight inset.
If so, lower it before replacing the front sight. From the pics, you have the correct front sights.

I’ll check. Putting in patio arbor bases today so I’ll be busy for a while.

Stay safe.