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Win. 94ae 45 colt - Deer Load

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by bsparker, Aug 31, 2019.

  1. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    I've been fascinated by hunting with the 45 colt lately. I've been carrying a SAA 45 colt as a backup woods gun while hunting, but have a Winchester model 94ae in 45 colt with a 20 in barrel.

    Considering taking the Win. 94ae out for shots at 75 yards (average distance where I hunt, Front Royal, VA). Anyone know if this rifle will handle +p (or Ruger loads)? I have some double tap KSWC at 255gr, but curious about something with a little more punch.

    Is more pressure needed? Can the Win. 94ae handle +p?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  2. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    The Winchester can handle loads beyond the anemic 14k PSI the issue you run into however is the overall cartridge length. Lever Actions are quite picky vs revolvers when it comes it this. I don't know what type of game your going for but for deer and hog I see no reason why a typical 250 gr at about 850 out of a revolver won't work that same load should be able to in a lever action. The increase in velocity should extend your range however.
     
  3. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    I load my 94 ae to ruger loads all the time. They can handle it just fine. My go to deer load is a ruger only load at max. Pushing a 265 grain HP SWC Keith style bullet 15 BHN GC at 2000 fps. It's good for deer out to 200 yards. Leaves an exit hole the size of a large grape fruit. Always drt


    Edit: I basically copied buffalo bore 45colt +P deer grenade ammo. I even mimicked his bullet design. Great round if you dont want to load your own.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  4. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    Why make a superior cartridge such as the 45 colt weak like it's the 1800's? If not for alot of b.s. sammi crap there was no need to even invent the 44 mag. The 45 colt out performs it at a bit lower pressure and the 44 special does everything a 44 mag can do. It's very insulting too not let an old cartridge take advantage of smokeless powder and 20th century metallurgy.

    They didn't do it to the 45-70 or lots of other calibers so I dunno why they did it to the 44Sp and 45C other than when charter arms couldn't build a gun in the 80's and sammi stepped in and covered there butts.
     
  5. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    I never said to? I in fact stated the winchester could handle those loads he just needs to be careful with overall cartridge length, I dont know what type of game hes after but for typical white tail and hogs you dont need to hot rod the .45 colt, I never said not to. All things being the same the .44 mag and the .45 colt are practically neck and neck, the .44 mag will have a slight edge in velocity and sectional density but the .45 Colt will have a slighter edge in obviously bullet diameter but also bullet weight, and this is taking into account loads in the 45-50k PSI loadings, these loadings should ONLY be used in the ruger redhawk/super or a 5 shot custom gun. John Linebaugh's writings on the .45 colt were correct back in the day but here and now its really a wash between the two. In a 94 one would be wise to limit your loadings to MAX pressure at 40k and you should probably load down from that to. An 1892 is a stronger gun but again .45 colt against the typical american game doesnt need to be hotrodded.
     
  6. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    Well maybe not but you can kill deer with a .22lr but it's not legal or popular.

    I say take it up to ruger only loads and expand a bullet and carry massive amounts of energy to the intended target.

    Not sammi spec ammo and poke a hole with maybe 350ftlbs of energy
     
  7. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    You can kill anything with a .22, you can kill anything with a sharp rock to.

    Ruger loads at 32k PSI should be fine in that rifle PENDING the cartridge fits the gun.

    Energy footpounds doesnt kill anything, bloodloss, CNS disruption, and organ destruction do, hence why a .22 can kill things.
     
  8. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    Ftlbs of energy do kill things by overpressure. Again you have to have massive amounts of energy and you need to transfer it. Something a 14k psi 45c will not do. But a ruger only load will. Also yes blood loss. Like I said why poke as hole when you can create a canyon?
     
  9. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    How do you think animals were killed beforehand? Diameter and Bullet weight, you do not need to hotrod the .45 colt for typical american game, when your going after Bear,Elk, Moose then sure but you simply dont need to. Do what you want its just not needed.
     
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  10. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    Thanks for the lively discussion. White tail is the target. I'm confident, with a good shot at appropriate distance, the saami rated 45c (not the cowboy loads) will take a white tail. I'm using iron sights, so I'm taking most shots around 75 yards. The Double Tap SWC Keith style 255gr bullet runs about 850fps and 460ft/lbs out of my revolver (5.5"bbl). I imagine, I'm in better shape with the increased barrel length of the 94.

    Main concern is not the kill, but the rifle. Same with the revolver, it'll handle 25-30k psi but it's not built to handle a diet of them so I've chosen not to use +p. Will the Winchester 94 handle the extra pressure (up to 40k psi)? Firing enough for regular practice and hunting.

    I err on the side of running a "standard" load for the sake of the rifle, but having only hunted with rifle cartridges (.243, .270, 30-30, 30-06) I want to ensure a clean kill. Thanks for the thoughts.
     
  11. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    Someone on another thread mentioned Buffalo Bore Deer Grenade: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=335

    Ammo mentions acceptable use in all win & marlin 1894s.

    The grenade might leave more of a canyon that bigbore45 talked about. I’ll test this and the double tap 255gr I have and see what shoots/feeds better. (Next step will be learn reloading)
     
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  12. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    Mic McPherson is THE authority on lever action rifles he rates the Marlin/Winchester 1894s up to the 40k PSI loadings. I wouldnt be shooting 30k PSI loads in a Colt SAA or Clone of such, 30k PSI is entering Ruger Blackhawk territory, I would either get the blackhawk or redhawk for hot .45 colt loads, the .45 colt in a Colt SAA can be loaded a bit hotter than the standard 14k PSI but not into the 30k range.
     
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  13. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    I don't doubt that the round will do the job either. Theodore Van Dyke, author of The Still Hunter swore by the .44-40 round from his Winchester '73, even out beyond 100 yards.

    I've seen what a 225 grain round ball from a flintlock will do to a deer at 100 yards with open iron sights, and that sphere bleeds energy fast, so I think yes your cartridge rifle will be fine out to 75 yards.

    The only problem is does Virginia have a minimum energy regulation for hunting deer with a cartridge rifle? Maryland does, and sets the bar at 1200 ftlbs. Very few of the factory .45 Colt loads come anywhere close to that threshold. For example:

    Reminton Performance Wheel Gun .45 Colt 344 ftlbs.
    Hornady LEVERevolution .45 Colt 469 ftlbs.
    Remington High Performance .45 Colt 369 ftlbs.
    Winchester Silvertips .45 Colt 423 ftlbs.
    Streak Visual .45 Colt 825 ftlbs

    Now I'm sure most of those rounds are calculated from a handgun, perhaps with the exception of the Hornady. So your 20" barrel should give you more velocity, but for a 250 grain projectile to hit the Maryland standard, it's gotta be moving at more than 1470 fps.

    The Buffalo Bore Deer Grenades are rated at 1298 ft. lbs.
    Grizzly brand offers a 300 grain lead gas check at 1250 fps and a 335 grain at 1170 fps, (from handguns)..., so from you rifle should also deliver enough energy to meet my state's arbitrary standard. So again does your state have such a standard? :confused:

    LD
     
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  14. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Member

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    I load 45 colt for some of my rifles a little more stout that the average more antique firearm. I mark those with a blue sharpie on the primer to keep them separate. I have four rifles in 45 Colt and enjoy shooting them all. Who needs a 44 mag when you got a 45 Colt in the proper firearm. Like the cowboy answered when asked why he carried a 45 Colt; "because they don't make a 46 Colt".

    I would carry a 44 Mag any day of the week. Just don't own one.
     
  15. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    I do the same thing. Marking my primers. Also bullet design changes depending on load.

    Yellow for black powder loads
    Green for 14k and under psi loads
    Blue for 14k to 21k psi loads
    Red for 21k to 32k psi loads
    Black for 32k to 38k psi loads

    Everyone is always worried about mixing them up and ending up in the wrong gun. Same is true for all the 308 based calibers. I dont go slamming my 260 Remington in my 243 or 308 so I can keep my 45 colt separate aswell. Between bullet choices and primer markers it's pretty simple. More effective than most other caliber or load separation.
     
  16. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    Thanks for the reminder of minimum velocity. Virginia does have a minimum requirement, but it's set at caliber for rifle (.23) and 350ft/lbs for pistol. Pretty low. Either way I'm good, I do remember having to find a higher power cartridge for the revolver I carry. I didn't care much for the Hornady, but havn't tried it in the rifle (ironically).
     
  17. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    I do love shooting the 45c rifle. Just feels good in the hand and easy to aim. I might be loading mine up a little bit more than I do the SAA.
     
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  18. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    I reload, and with the right powder, .45 LC is plenty powerful. If you don't reload, I second the Buffalo Bore load mentioned above, or the DoubleTap bonded hunter:
    http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_351&product_id=513

    My feeling is - use a powerful enough load to make a quick, clean kill. But if you are making shots out to 100 yards, make sure your elevations are correct. Those hotter loads don't drop as much as the cowboy-level loads out at distance.
     
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  19. bsparker

    bsparker Member

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    Thanks for the recommendations. I took it to the range today with a variety of ammo, including the double tap you mentioned. Love shooting this gun, first time shooting it with a hunt in mind. Using the double tap, I was getting 2.5" groups at 40yards (open sights, probably the average distance I'll shoot). Next I'll be checking out the buffalo bore. Appreciate the help.
     
  20. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    You’ll be well armed with that load for the game-distance you’ve stated it’ll be used for.

    Let us know how it worked out. :thumbup:

    Stay safe.
     
  21. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    I like heavy bullets, BUT, I have grand kids {Girls} that use my 92s. I now load Barnes 225s at around 1200 fps. These run at about 2 to 3" at 100 yards. 1" at 50 yards. That Barnes bullet has never failed me yet. It is amazing what it does to a deer. Recoil is light. The heavy bullets would hit harder but also have recoil a tad but too much for the kids. I tried the same bullets at 1500 fps out of my 1892 24". It has a steel but plate. The fancy curved one. Ouch. Wont be using that load anytime soon again.Yep it would sock a deer rather hard. But the 225s at 1200 do too. Drops very quickly. Just my 2 cents. Have fun with what ever you choose.
     
  22. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    I shoot a 200 gr jfn in my Charles daley baby sharps 44-40 at 1600 fps and the same load in my Winchester 53 in 44-40 and that load kills deer dead within woods ranges and I think the 45 colt will do the same thing.
     

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  23. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Back about 2005, I bought 1,000 Hornady 250gr XTP Blems from MidwayUSA.

    I had won a Winchester M94 “Legacy” XTR in a PPC regional match.
    Using the Nosler “Ruger only” max load of 20.0gr of #2400, I get 1,750fps and astonishing accuracy. I’ve shot several 3-shot groups under 1” at 100yds, but in all fairness it’s a 2moa shooter.
    It does however wear a Williams Sourdough reciever sight...

    I no longer load/shoot such warm loads as I primarily shoot my S&W M625 Mountain Gun.
    I still have most of my 250’s left, as I mostly shoot either a Lee 255gr RFN or RCBS 270gr SAA SWC over modest charges of LongShot.
    Either of these two running ~900fps from revolver or 1,200fps from rifle will completely penetrate a deer or pig. What more do you need?
     
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