Winchester 1300

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Along the Gulf Coast around the turn of the century...

... "youth" model 1300 Winchesters were quite popular among women deer hunters on dog drive hunts. The 1300 was the only 12 gauge reduced stock length slide action then on the market - perfect for buckshot.
 
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I've had one for over ten years now. It has a 28 and an 18 barrel which is very handy. Used it to hunt with, three-gun and trap shooting. It's a great gun and has worked fine. I would think long and hard about trading it for anything. However, accessories and spare parts are getting hard to find. You could by a good used Mossberg 500, Maverick 88, or Remington 870, all fine shotguns, for the price of another barrel for the 1300.
 
I picked up a slightly used 1300 defender a couple of years ago. Changed the barrel out for one with fiber optic rifle sites and threaded for choke tubes (original barrel wasn't). I started using it for club level 3-gun matches a little over a year ago. I'm fine with it. Seems to work well for me but I don't have a ton of shotgun experience.
 
I used the 870 as a service weapon for years. I bought the Defender as my HD gun. For me it is lighter and points better. Lots of practice , lots of rounds and no problems.
 
I have one with the plastic furniture I bought after Hurricane Andrew. No problems with it after 20 years although I don't shoot it regularly. An interesting factoid (on not) is that the 1300 will reliably feed Aguila mini-shells.
 
Dad had his 1200 Since about 72 and the only thing his done to it is to put a new forearm on it ,got it threaded for screw in chokes and big white bead on the barrel. It been flawless for 40 years.
 
Another interesting factoid:

The 1200, 1300 and SXP models do not have an inertia slide lock.
 
Remember the line from your last basic firearms safety course:

If the gun fails to fire, keep the action closed and pointed in a safe direction for a few seconds. It may be a hangfire.

So what does that mean when shooting a pump shotgun?

Well most pump shotguns have an Inertia Slide Lock just for that reason.

However:

The 1200,1300, Speed Pump and now SXP actions do not have an inertia slide lock:

The currently advertised Winchester SXP "inertia assist" is simply the lack of an inertia slide lock as present, for example, in the 870 and 500 series shotguns by Remington and Mossberg respectively. The original purpose of the inertia slide lock was to keep the action locked in the event of a quick hangfire (delayed ignition of the primer/powder). Hangfires were relatively rare even in late 19th and early 20th century ammunition. However, in shotshells constructed of wound paper, the possibility of a moisture induced quick hangfires apparently remained a concern. Accordingly, slide action shotguns continued to be designed with an inertia slide lock release. When the shotshell fired, recoil shoved the shotgun to the rear, the forearm assembly would by its own inertia move forward, this miniscule movement unlocked the slide allowing the action to open. The inertia lock function works so fast that most shotgunners are unaware of it. Should there be a quick hangfire the operator's hand pulling slightly rearward would keep the action locked. If so desired a slight hand induced forward movement of the forearm would also unlock the now hammer forward action ( both exposed or concealed hammer designs).

The forerunner of the SXP design, the Winchester 1200, was introduced in 1964. This was well into the transition to the, cheaper to mass produce, plastic shotshell bodies and fold crimp closures. In light of the, by then, virtually non-existant hangfire phenomenon, Winchester designers apparently omitted the inertial lock concept from the new rotating bolt design.

Does your slide action have an inertial slide lock?

Here is how to check:

Make sure your shotgun is unloaded, close the action and release the safety. Then in a regular firing position pull rearward on the forend and pull the trigger. If an inertia slide lock is present the action will remain locked until you allow the forend to move slightly forward and then pull rearward. If no inertia slide lock is present, the forend will move rearward as soon as the hammer drops.
 
That's BS. As soon as the hammer drops, an 870 is unlocked. If there is an inertia block I'd like to know where it is.
With all pumps, if there is pressure rearward from the shell firing against the bolt, no design will allow the locking lug(s) to disengage until that pressure drops.
 
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Virginian:

Take your Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 and dry fire while holding rearward pressure on the forearm. The action will remain locked until that rearward pressure on the forearm is released. The same is true of the Winchester 1897 and model 12.

Do the same dry fire exercise with a 1200, 1300, or SXP and the action will immediately release when the trigger is pulled.
 
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Remember the line from your last basic firearms safety course:

If the gun fails to fire, keep the action closed and pointed in a safe direction for a few seconds. It may be a hangfire.

So what does that mean when shooting a pump shotgun?

Well most pump shotguns have an Inertia Slide Lock just for that reason.

However:

The 1200,1300, Speed Pump and now SXP actions do not have an inertia slide lock:

The currently advertised Winchester SXP "inertia assist" is simply the lack of an inertia slide lock as present, for example, in the 870 and 500 series shotguns by Remington and Mossberg respectively. The original purpose of the inertia slide lock was to keep the action locked in the event of a quick hangfire (delayed ignition of the primer/powder). Hangfires were relatively rare even in late 19th and early 20th century ammunition. However, in shotshells constructed of wound paper, the possibility of a moisture induced quick hangfires apparently remained a concern. Accordingly, slide action shotguns continued to be designed with an inertia slide lock release. When the shotshell fired, recoil shoved the shotgun to the rear, the forearm assembly would by its own inertia move forward, this miniscule movement unlocked the slide allowing the action to open. The inertia lock function works so fast that most shotgunners are unaware of it. Should there be a quick hangfire the operator's hand pulling slightly rearward would keep the action locked. If so desired a slight hand induced forward movement of the forearm would also unlock the now hammer forward action ( both exposed or concealed hammer designs).

The forerunner of the SXP design, the Winchester 1200, was introduced in 1964. This was well into the transition to the, cheaper to mass produce, plastic shotshell bodies and fold crimp closures. In light of the, by then, virtually non-existant hangfire phenomenon, Winchester designers apparently omitted the inertial lock concept from the new rotating bolt design.

Does your slide action have an inertial slide lock?

Here is how to check:

Make sure your shotgun is unloaded, close the action and release the safety. Then in a regular firing position pull rearward on the forend and pull the trigger. If an inertia slide lock is present the action will remain locked until you allow the forend to move slightly forward and then pull rearward. If no inertia slide lock is present, the forend will move rearward as soon as the hammer drops.
Good post, I appreciate the info. I will stay away from paper shells as I shoot a SXP. Not that I have encountered any at the store lately, but I do have uncles who still own some.
 
Paper hulls generally have no problems in this age of central heating and AC. I suspect long term storage in damp climates was the most likely culprit in an earlier time - even so hangfires were considered a rare event.
 
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Virginian:
Take your Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 and dry fire while holding rearward pressure on the forearm. The action will remain locked until that rearward pressure on the forearm is released. The same is true of the Winchester 1897 and model 12.

Do the same dry fire exercise with a 1200, 1300, or SXP and the action will immediately release when the trigger is pulled.
That's because with you holding pressure against the action the friction will not allow the action release to actuate. There is no inertia block. When a shell fires, unless you are Godzilla, you will not hold that pressure and the action will be unlocked instantly. Guns with a locking block will not unlock in any event before the pressure/force drops in that locking block to barrel or receiver lockup, but that happens in microseconds.
Tom Knapp or Tim whats-his-name set a record with hand thrown targets with a Benelli pump, and I am not even a Benelli fan. The guns with a rotating bolt work like an interrupted worm gear thread in that they are self locking when driven in reverse. The action is locked until the hammer falls, and then you aren't fast enough to unlock the rotary lugs before the pressure peak is well past, so no problem.
The Speed Pump moniker is all marketing hype. In good operating order the system does work fine, but there is no advantage in a real shooting situation. It's like how every semi auto has 60% less recoil. Less recoil than what?
 
The Speed Pump moniker is all marketing hype. In good operating order the system does work fine, but there is no advantage in a real shooting situation.
You are correct, but it sure is fun to show someone with a semi-auto that you can pretty much keep up with them in terms of speed when shooting a pump. Accuracy goes out the window though. :)

It's like how every semi auto has 60% less recoil. Less recoil than what?

It's 60% (or some other number ) less felt recoil than the exact same gun with the gas system disabled. I think the number is usually less than 60%, but it is quite noticeable. I've shot my Garand with a vented gas plug in it and the recoil is noticeably sharper and harder.

Matt
 
Yep, and the reduction depends heavily on the load selected. I was helping - or trying to - a guy having light load issues with an 11-87. I suggested he try blocking the relief gas ports with silicone (before I realized a second thicker O ring would also do it). He blocked the primary gas ports and was shocked. I imagine the Garand would talk to you too. I had a "Sporterized" 1903 Springfield way back, and it was pretty vicious with that metal buttplate.
 
That's because with you holding pressure against the action the friction will not allow the action release to actuate. There is no inertia block. When a shell fires, unless you are Godzilla, you will not hold that pressure and the action will be unlocked instantly. Guns with a locking block will not unlock in any event before the pressure/force drops in that locking block to barrel or receiver lockup, but that happens in microseconds.
Tom Knapp or Tim whats-his-name set a record with hand thrown targets with a Benelli pump, and I am not even a Benelli fan. The guns with a rotating bolt work like an interrupted worm gear thread in that they are self locking when driven in reverse. The action is locked until the hammer falls, and then you aren't fast enough to unlock the rotary lugs before the pressure peak is well past, so no problem.
The Speed Pump moniker is all marketing hype. In good operating order the system does work fine, but there is no advantage in a real shooting situation. It's like how every semi auto has 60% less recoil. Less recoil than what?

Virginian:

To quell this tempest in a teapot:

I agree with you except for: "That's because with you holding pressure against the action the friction will not allow the action release to actuate. There is no inertia block."

The inertia lock only becomes noticable if a rare hangfire occurs. Note: A hangfire is an extremely brief ignition delay. It is indeed a rare happening. The dryfire excercise is simply to simulate a failure to fire or brief hangfire. Only the slightest of rearward pressure keeps the action from releasing should a shell fail to fire. Perhaps the purpose of the inertia slide lock release is not clear. In ordinary firing the forearm assembly moves forward slightly as the shotgun recoils - automatically releasing the action.

Note also what I wrote: "When the shotshell fires, recoil shoves the shotgun to the rear, the forearm assembly would by its own inertia move forward, this miniscule movement unlocks the slide allowing the action to open. The inertia lock function works so fast that most shotgunners are unaware of it."

We previously had this discussion and the reference to "Kuhnhausen's description of the 870's cycle of operation" in post number nine gets to the heart of the matter:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=537399

Regards
RMc
 
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I have Jerry's book and while it is excellent, I do not agree with him on everything.
Take an 870, unloaded and cocked. Do not hold the fore end. Hold gun so it cannot move. Pull trigger. Pull fore end straight back. Where's the inertia now?
I agree only a slight rearward pressure on the fore end is required to keep it from working, but I call that friction, not inertia.
 
The Models 1300 and SXP are good, solid and affordable pumps. I have one of each and they are very smooth operating and reliable shotguns. They're not my favorite pumps but are well worth the money, imo.
 
I have Jerry's book and while it is excellent, I do not agree with him on everything.
Take an 870, unloaded and cocked. Do not hold the fore end. Hold gun so it cannot move. Pull trigger. Pull fore end straight back. Where's the inertia now?
I agree only a slight rearward pressure on the fore end is required to keep it from working, but I call that friction, not inertia.
When an 870 or 500 is dry fired in a non-shooting position, like you describe, he bolt is moved forward slightly by the hammer strike thus releasing the action. When dry fired in a normal shooting position, normal rearward forend pressure, prevents immediate bolt movement and the action remains locked until the bolt is moved by releasing the forend. Of course in the normal firing cycle, action release due to inertial forces happens happens so fast as to be completely unnoticed.

On the other hand, the 1200/1300/Speed Pump design when dry fired with or without constant rearward pressure on the forearm - immediately releases the action when the hammer drops. Of course in normal firing the time it takes the bolt to unlock is sufficient for the shot charge to clear the bore and pressure to drop prior to action opening.

Again, I have enjoyed our discussion.
 
Well, I just checked, and if my bolt moves forward when it is dry fired, it is such an infinitesimal amount I can't discern it. After the hammer fall it does move backward slightly.
 
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