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Winchester 1897 problem and interesting barrel

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by ThePlato, Jun 5, 2011.

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  1. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    My new to me 1906 manufactured winchester 1897 has a problem. When I pop out the takedown pin and rotate the magazine tube it fails to extracate itself from the receiver body. More aptly said.. it's stuck. It moves a fraction of an inch. when rotated back there is no movement.

    It also came with what at first appeared to be a riot barrel. Further I made perhaps an interesting discovery. My riot barrel appears to be modified for a heatshield and bayonet lug attachment? I've attached pictures of the barrel along with the various markings in order to help with identification.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Here she is in her glory

    [​IMG]
     
  2. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    The short barrel is a trench barrel sure enough, grooves for bayonet mount as you suspected. It may be a model 1912 trench barrel, I have not seen them completely dismounted so I don't know for sure. The picture of the full gun, shows a very early style of stock for a 97, in fact from this angle it looks like an 1893. If I could see the end of magazine or the receiver from the top ,I could tell for sure. But that could be your problem on take down. If that barrel is 26" marked cylinder choke its a Brush Gun.

    No I can see it, its a 97, if the take down pin was replaced or put on backwards, it can do that. Just going by memory I think it will turn about 1/4-3/8" the wrong direction, if you can get it to turn a full 1/4 turn, the other way, then pull forward on the fore arm about 5 inches, then turn barrel and mag 1/4 turn clockwise and pull apart.

    It may help to move slide to about half mast, before you turn the mag tube.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  3. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    Thank you very much for your reply. Firearm is marked winchester model 1897. Serial number is in the D 299XXX range which puts it around 1905-1906? The take down pin was originally in backwards but I fixed that. It seems to turn fully.

    The barrel is marked 12 Full.

    Tried the half mast. No go yet. Will keep at it.
     
  4. Red Cent

    Red Cent Member

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    There is a small screw at the front right bottom edge of that side of the receiver. This screws retains the mag tube by having a dead head that fits into a hole in the tube.

    The tube has split/interrupted threads and will come out no matter which way it is turned.

    Apparently everything is apart. Did you take the receiver extension off and removed the barrel from same?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  5. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    Are you saying I just take that screw out in order to help with the disassembly process?
     
  6. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    I've only had about 3 or 4 of these ,but I don't recall any thing about a screw for take down. He might be talking about taking the barrel off completely. Which he may well be right , I've never pulled the barrel from the assembly.

    The threads are interupted, thats true, but there is a pitch to them, so I think it will only turn 1 way. I see what your saying.I'm talking about the receiver extension.

    You said magazine tube. Yeah maybe you can turn it either direction, but I was thinking the pin kept it from turning far enough the other direction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  7. Searcher4851

    Searcher4851 Member

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    Looking at the pic of that barrel, it doesn't appear to have interrupted threads so I'm guess it's not the "takedown" model, or easy takedown.
     
  8. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    The barrel doesn't have the interrupted threads on it.

    The receiver extension that should remain attached to it does.

    rc
     
  9. T.R.

    T.R. Member

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    I recenlty read about the history of WWII Marine fighting in the Pacific Islands. The 97 shotgun was often used in battles. Marines had brass cased buckshot ammo instead of common cardboard hulls. Apparently, plastic hull shotgun ammo hadn't been invented yet. The 97 knocked down scores of Japanese soldiers.

    TR
     
  10. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    Plato, Get it yet? I've been thinking about this. If you were looking at the muzzle end of the magazine tube. The mag tube should turn 90 degrees, clock wise,after you push th TD pin out. If you can get that much, you should be able to pull forward on the fore arm. Thats the way my model 12 does, I'm sure its the same.
     
  11. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    Hello again everyone. The mag tube turns 90 degress counter clock wise once I push the pin out. However the magazine tube will not come out.
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Are you sure you have a take-down version, or a solid-frame model?

    I can't tell from the picture you posted which it is.

    If you have a solid-frame model without the receiver extension joint at the front of the receiver, It does not have interupted threads like the take-down model.

    The mag tube has to be unscrewed all the way out of the receiver, after you take the screws out that hold the mag plug and pin in the tube.

    rc
     
  13. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    With the mag turned, bolt closed, hammer down full, not on safety notch, you can't pull forward on fore arm?

    On the bottom of gun right ahead of the loading port. Are there two sets of numbers or only one? If 2, do numbers match?
     
  14. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    RugerMcMarlin,

    Indeed that is correct. It won't come out when all of those steps are taken. I'm looking at where you indicated and see no numbers.. I see the serial number on the very bottom of the shotgun on the receiver and on the takedown portion. The two serial numbers do match.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    Thats the numbers I was talking about. I was starting to think you didn't have a '97. You do. On the end cap, of the magazine there is a kind of Y shaped yoke,
    that keeps the mag centered with the barrel. There should be faint lines in the blue showing where it rubs when the mag is pulled forward for takedown. Do you see any? It's just possible its never been apart!

    Hey in the picture with the serial numbers. just left of the numbers. on the ejection port side it looks like a screw head, right at the joint!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  16. tim.mineshine

    tim.mineshine Member

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    W-1897 & Model 12 Takedown owner

    Howdy, I own 2 different Winchester takedowns, and the only time I had a problem with it is when one of my nephews (all have been over 21 for longer than I care to admit) turned the disassmebly the wrong direction, in fact he kinda forced it...

    Try turning the tube in the other direction, push the pin the other way and then gently try turning it in the new direction a little more.

    If that doesn't work, ask around at several gunshops in your area about who would they recomend for an older shotgun. If two or more give you the same name, I would take that old girl to him for some TLC.

    Good Luck, Tim
     
  17. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    Holy #$%^, thats what RedCent's talking about.:eek: Take that screw out. and try it. That must be something they changed later. None of mine had that.

    RedCents probably got a dozen like that. I think he's the guy that shoots cowboy with them.
     
  18. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    RugerMcMarlin,

    What does the screw head signify?

    RugerMcMarlin and Tim.mineshine,

    So I made a video showing what is going on with the take down. I really do appreciate you guys helping me so much!

    http://youtu.be/fB-QXBrZ_AE
     
  19. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    I took that screw out and no change. :(
     
  20. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    It looks like the screw if its very long at all, will go into the mag tube. But I don't see the point of it. The book says some 97s were not takedown models. Maybe
    you got one. My brother says if you unscrew the magtube too far, it will put it into a bind. I don't know how thats going to help though.
     
  21. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    The screw did not appear to be particularly long. I thought non-take down models didn't have the take down pin at the end of the magazine tube?
     
  22. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    You sure wouldn't think so.

    OK I watched the vid. push the pin turn the tube,just like you did then pull on the wooden pump grip, forward smartly. tell me how that works. you won't be able to just pull the tube forward. There is a flat piece on the mag tube, about 1/2 by 3/8" that keeps it as part of the assembly
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  23. Red Cent

    Red Cent Member

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    How are we seeing the threads of the barrel? If that is true, the receiver extension has been unthreaded from the barrel. That is impossible unless the barrel, magazine tube, fore end and action bar has been removed.

    The '97 in the picture is a takedown. Solid frames do not have the mag pin. Solid frame mag tube simply screws out once the barrel band holder is removed as RC said.

    The proper sequence is to rack the slide back. (Takedown) push mag pin through to the other side, rotate mag tube 1/4 turn, mag should come out partially. Rack the slide to locked position firmly and the mag tube, fore end with action bar attached should come out of the receiver. Rotate barrel 1/4 turn and entire assembly is removed from the receiver.
     
  24. ThePlato

    ThePlato Member

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    RugerMcMarlin, tried what you said. Still a no go.

    Red Cent, the barrel above pictured is a spare that came with the gun. I tried the proper sequence and still a no go. The mag tube does not come out. It only moves as much as shown in the video.
     
  25. RugerMcMarlin

    RugerMcMarlin Member

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    RedCent glad your here, this is gonna take a 7 level.;)
     
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