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Winchester 243...the better 6.5 Creedmore?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by the count, Jan 23, 2017.

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  1. the count

    the count Member

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    The other day I had some money burning a hole in my pocket as I went to my favorite gun store looking for a new rifle. While I originally looked for something chambered in 6.5 Creedmore I was told that its near impossible to find anything in that caliber at the moment. However, the sales guy told me that the 243 aka 6mm caliber is ballistically superior to a 6.5, plus brass etc. are plentiful and cheap. So thats what I did. First range visit is upcoming but lets hear if I made a mistake or not.
     
  2. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    Your mistake may be barrel twist...the high BC really long 6mm bullets require a fast twist barrel to stabilize them. Assuming your rifle will stabilize them get some 105+ grain match grade bullets and have fun.
     
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  3. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    Better? Superior? I do not know, but ...

    ... I bought my first .243 (Ruger M77) in 1978 and, as I well recall, it was boringly accurate. :)
     
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  4. the count

    the count Member

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    It's got a 1:10 so whats the ideal bullet weight ?
     
  5. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    Hi,

    Bullets do not stabilize based on weight but length, speed, rifling and design/construction.

    With that said with 1:10 you will be ok up to some 90gr spitzers lead based and perhaps some 100gr soft points. Will not be able to
    shoot 80gr-90gr copper solids like TTSX nor 95gr VLD and match bullets or anything heavier with better ballistics.

    IMO it is crazy they sell a 1:10 twist and on top claim "superiority", whatever that means in their imaginary world.

    243 throats & barrels do not last as long so if you shoot often you will be able to re-barrel to something better.
     
  6. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    True.
    Plus there are match grade 243 benchrest bullets available, (not cheap).

    But the 6.5 would have been better for larger game, but not with the short 20" barrels. To much velocity loss. IMO.
     
  7. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    If one is looking for speed also consider this...

    A 260 can propel 100gr bullets 100fps/avg faster & flatter than the 243 can shoot a 100gr bullet with bullets available around .4 G1.
    A 7mm-08 can shoot 110-130gr bullets at the same speeds with ballistics coefficients above .4 G1.
    A 308 can shoot 110-130gr bullets at the same speeds faster and same speeds with coefficients a tad below .4 G1.

    In a 20" barrel considering similar cases and case volume to bore volume ratio....

    - The 260 and 6.5 calibers loose less speed on average.
    - The 7mm-08 even less speed on average.
    - The 308 looses the least amount of speed on average.
     
  8. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I haven't noticed any shortage of 6.5 Creedmoor rifles, brass or ammunition.

    Ballistically superior? with very heavy for caliber bullets as already stated which is pretty much a hand loading proposition. And as you stated your rifle has a 1:10 twist so you are SOL in that regard. So the sales rep only told you part of the story. Either he was out of Creedmoors or knew just enough to be dangerous.
     
  9. CraigC

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    I decided last week to get into the long range game when I found out the new K&M complex was only 15mins away. I considered the 6mmCreedmoor but decided on the 6.5 for various reasons. I ordered a rifle, scope, mounts, dies, brass, bullets and 100rds of factory ammo yesterday. I'll be ringing steel by the end of the week. None of it seems to be hard to find. Even the Ruger Precision Rifle was easy to procure on Gunbroker.
     
  10. Olympus

    Olympus Member

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    I don't know what the guy meant by "superior", but 6mms have been being used competitively with great success for many years. Being a big advocate of the 243 myself, I don't really know what superiority it would have over the 6.5 CM other than less recoil and availability of brass. Performance wise, I think the 6.5 CM outperforms in just about all areas. For long distance shooting the 6.5 seems to be the caliber of choice for many.
     
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  11. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    I have a .243. Great for getting moderate sized bullets moving fast. But, you don't typically see guys in matches using that over bore of cartridge. If you want target grade accuracy, I'd try a 6 Dasher or 6XC, etc. A 6br would be most excellent.

    And why worry about brass? If you're not gonna reload, it's gonna most likely be too expensive to shoot, or you won't get superior accuracy. If you do reload, get the 6br and 200 brass and they will last the life of the barrel.

    It's your nickel. If you're happy, go for it
     
  12. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

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    I have owned a number of .243 WCF rifles over the years. The .243 requires more attention for neck trimming and turning than a 6MM Remington. :)
     
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  13. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...made a mistake or not..." Nope. The guy was right. .243 ammo, brass and bullets are everywhere. 6.5 stuff isn't necessarily. Probably not at all in small places.
    There are lots of on-line comparisons(that being the polite term. snicker.) between the two cartridges. For hunting the .243 is a 300 yard cartridge. The 6.5 uses heavier bullets so you get more energy. Most an apples and oranges comparison ballistically.
    "...long 6mm bullets require a fast twist..." And the 1 in 10 will do. Even though it's kind of odd. Most commercial .243's are rifled for deer sized game hunting bullets. My .243 has a 1 in 9.125 and loves Speer 105 grain SP's with IMR4350.
    "...243 throats & barrels do not last as long..." That's an internet myth. Been shooting those 105's and 90's for 40 years out of a barrel that was used when I bought the thing and isn't a super duper barrel to start with. Still shoots consistent 2 or 3 inches at 100 all day.
     
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  14. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

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    As I recall mythology has it's roots in facts?;)
     
  15. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    A 243 is a good round, but with a 1:10 twist you'll get best accuracy with bullets under 100 gr. The guys who want to shoot the heavier long range loads are buying 1:8 twist barrels which are much less common, usually only seen on custom rigs. Your 10 twist is a decent compromise for varmint hunting with lighter bullets and deer at close to moderate range with bullets in the 85-95 gr range. While the 243 can be effective as a long range target round, not with the barrel you have. The new 6mm Creedmoor's are coming with 1:8 or 1:7.7 barrels designed to shoot 105-115 gr bullets needed for long range deer hunting and target work

    I'd have held out for the 6.5 Creed. Ammo is readily available at reasonable prices on the internet and it is a far better option for longer range work.
     
  16. the count

    the count Member

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    For what its worth check out accurateshooter.com

    Strangely, no information specifically for 6.5 CM but plenty on 6.5-284, 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Lapua

    The 243 gets a pretty good review. Keep in mind I am seeing all this from a non-competitive perspective shooting at targets no more that 500 yards away.

    http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/243win/

    PS Here in NC I checked out Gander Mountain, Bass Pro and the largest indep. gun store in the area and no 6.5 CM whatsoever.
     
  17. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    To me, this is comparing apples and oranges. Mentally, I tend to put the 6.5 Creedmoor as closer to a 270 Win than a 243 Win. While the 243 is a fine cartridge, I think that the sales guy was just being a sales guy trying to push the stock he has on hand.

    The availability of 6.5 CM is more location dependent--it depends on how popular it is in your area. It is getting surprisingly popular (at least surprising to me) in West Texas. However, it is a very well-balance cartridge for the whitetail deer and antelope in the Concho Valley and Permium Basin areas.

    The 243 has been around so long that it is ubiquitous.
     
  18. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Salesmanship -The salesman did his job. Sold an in-stock item . Turnover is a good thing. :)
     
  19. LoonWulf

    LoonWulf Member

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    If your good with shooting the lighter, lower bc bullets than id be happy with the .243. Accuracy should be good, and the "normal" bullets shoot plenty flat enough for what most of us are gonna do with an over the counter sporter.
    If you bought a bench rest rig for dedicated long range and/or your wanting to shoot the heavy high bc bullets id be a little bent at that sales guy.

    I have both, and while i havent used the 6.5 on game yet ive shot quite a bit with the .243, and it works well. My savage is a 1-9.25 and stabilizes 96grn vlds, but I generally shoot 100gr sptizers or hunting btsp.
    My 6.5 delivers 123s at 2900 (down from book velocity of 3k). larger, heavier, higher bc, bullet faster? Sure!
    I'm actually looking at rebarreling the .243 to a larger dia cartridge, not because it dosent work, but just because.
     
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  20. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    2-3 inches? That's no sales pitch.
    My old #1 had throat erosion and went from a .5" rifle at 100 to 1" and I thought that horrible, so dumped it.
    .243 win is a dandy chuck cartridge, and mean on yotes too. I run 70gr Nosler BT's (have in the last few). Older rigs had Speer and Hornady 75gr diets.
    Deer? Only shot one so far, with a new to me rifle ('85 vintage). 100gr at 80 yards ( hey I only have a 4X scope) off the bags............cloverleaf.

    If deer was the focus, and wanting something more unique...............proly 6.5
    Want something to double on varmints, easy to find ammo for............243 win.
    Want less blast in a short bbl, varmints only................6mm 223.
     
  21. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    And trimming cases is no big deal, do it when needed (which is not all that often).
     
  22. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Lots of newbs read the mags and get all excited, want the latest and greatest, want to shoot 1000 yards yadda yadda yadda.
    Seen them blow the $, then bring the items in for consignment within 6 months.
    Salesman might have moved an in stock item by playing the salesman.............but he might down the road have also done the purchaser a favor.
    Just depends on if the purchaser changes his mind on what he wants to do with the rifle.

    If paper to a couple hundred.............243 win is a fine choice.
    Blast varmints, maybe take deer..............works good too.
    OP needs to have fun with his rig and see if it ends up doing all he wants, or if he needs to try something different.
    Most folks would be better served with standard stuff IMHO.

    Sure some like to push everything to the limit. Probably fun experimentation.
    I'm not one of those types.
    Am content to stay within accepted boundaries of my cartridge selection.
    Don't need to shoot way out, am kinda sneaky and can get closer ;)
     
  23. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    I meant barrel life as "accuracy life". For general hunting use one can get more rounds if decreased accuracy/consistency is not a factor.
    These are subjective numbers but not too far from the actual based on rebarreling regime.
    Competition shooters might choose shorter life as consistency drops.
    One could get additional rounds throating and reloading.

    Caliber.................Rounds
    223 Rem/5.56..... 3000
    243 Win...............1500
    260 Rem/6.5C......2000
    6.5x.284...............1500
    7mm-08................4500
    284Win.................2000
    7mm RemMag......1500
    308 Win................ 5000
    30-06 Spfld........... 4000
    300 Win. Mag........1500

    No myths, simple physics.

    http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/facts-about-barrel-life/
     
  24. bang_bang

    bang_bang Member

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    My local Walmart is stocking Hornady 6.5CM brass and a few different projectiles. I'm seeing Creedmoor stuff more and more available.
     
  25. Stevenvalleyky

    Stevenvalleyky Member

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    My 10 twist 243 has at least 3000 rounds down the tube and is still well under 1"moa at 100 yards. I also typically shoot 100 grain bullets. Just have to see what it likes. You will be unlikely to stabilize the newer 115 grain bullets but 100s will probably work. Also, if you reload, moderate reloads seem to extend barrel life. I no longer send 100 grain rounds out of the barrel at 3000 fps. Its not needed for what I do with it and it just decreases the accuracy life of your barrel. I prefer the 243 to most rifle cartridges for whitetail sized game.
     
    horsey300 likes this.
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