Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel.

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 5pins, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. 5pins

    5pins Member

    Apr 29, 2003

    Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
    Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
    Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Defender Train & Defender.
    Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
    Distance: 10 feet.
    Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
    Five shot velocity average: 906, 846 fps Defender / 909, 867 fps Train & Defend.
    Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

    About two mounts ago Shooting the Bull announced the winner of the 9mm ammo quest and picked the Winchester 147gr Train and Defend. Shortly afterword I was in a Cabala’s and noticed they had both the Train and Defend as well as their 147gr Defender. At the store, I couldn’t remember which of the two he picked so I bought a box of each. Looking at the box’s the two looked identical aside from the difference in packing. The Defender did list a velocity of 1000fps as apposed to the Train and Defend at 950fps.

    Examining the rounds side by side they look almost identical with maybe a small difference in the bullet when looking down into the hollowpoint.


    Defender on the left and Train and Defend on the right.


    Point of impact was very similar to each other also.

    Defender at 10 yards from the Sig P229

    Train and Defend at 10 yards from the Sig P229

    Starting with the Defender, I got an average five velocity of 906fps with the P229 with a high of 933 and a low of 894fps. From the MK9 the average velocity was 846fps with a high of 858 and a low of 838fps.

    With the Train and Defend the P229 the five-shot average was 909fps with low of 925 and a low of 873fps. From the MK9 the average five-shot velocity was 867fps with a high of 894 and a low of 836fps.

    This is interesting because the Defender round is supposed to have a higher velocity than the Train and Defend by 50fps but came in lower from both the P229 and the Mk9. The Train and Defend had an average velocity 3fps higher in the P229 and 21fps higher from the MK9. Nether made the velocity calmed by Winchester.

    Shooting the first round of the Defender into the bare gel from the P229 the velocity was 911fps and penetrated to 19.5 inches. The recovered weight was 147.1 grains and it expanded to .54 inches. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 932fps and also penetrated to 19.5 inches. Recovered weight was 146.3 grains and it expanded to .53 inches.


    Through the heavy clothing covered gel, I didn’t get any velocity readings. The first round penetrated to 20.25 inches and expanded to .41 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.6 grains. The second round penetrated to 19.75 inches and weighed 146.6. When measured at the lead core of the bullet expansion was .49 inches. If measured at the largest point of the jacket “talons” it measured .63 inches.


    Only one shot was taken from the Mk9 into the bare gel. It penetrated to 18.5 inches and expanded to .50 inches at the lead core and .68 when measured to the talons. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and no velocity was recorded.


    With the Train and Defend the first round from the P229, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 930fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches with an expansion of .56 inches. The recovered weight was 146.7 grains. The second round also penetrated to 20.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.8 grains. The expansion was .55 inches and velocity was 925fps.


    Shooting the P229 through the heavy clothing the first round’s velocity was 937fps and it expanded to .53 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and penetration was 20.5 inches. Round two had a velocity of 918fps and penetrated to 21 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and expansion was .54 inches.


    The one round through the MK9, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 877fps and expanded to .41 inches when measured at the core, and .63 inches at the jacket. Penetration was 17 inches and recovered weight was 139.4 grains.

  2. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

    Oct 2, 2003
    Pretty consistent all the way around. With 147gr you ought to expect more penetration and it looks like 0.50" expansion & 20" penetration is about what you get from these.

    Maybe not my first choice, but not a bad choice at all.
  3. JERRY

    JERRY Member

    Jun 5, 2003
    thanks for the data! performance wise they seem to be quite good even from short bbls.
  4. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

    Jun 6, 2016
    SE Idaho
    Interesting. Thanks for posting that 5pins.:)
  5. Palolosj

    Palolosj member

    Jul 18, 2019
    When the Defender had black coating it was called Black Talon.
  6. RON in PA

    RON in PA Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    S.E. PA, USA
    Thanks for the data.
  7. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

    Jun 12, 2005
    Phoenix Az
    Isnt the Train and Defend line supposed to be cheap enough so you can train with your carry ammo? If so that's fairly impressive performance from a budget bullet.
    .308 Norma likes this.
  8. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

    Jun 6, 2016
    SE Idaho
    No, not exactly. The Winchester "Train and Defend" 9mm ammo I have is actually 2 different boxes of ammo, that are a little different from one-another - especially in price. The "Train and Defend" 9mm ammo that says "DEFEND" on the box came in a 20 round box, it has JHP bullets, the cases are nickel plated, and it cost about the same as the "Train and Defend" 9mm ammo that says "TRAIN" on the box of 50 rounds with full metal jacketed bullets and non-nickel plated brass cases. I hope all that made sense.:)
    Both the "TRAIN" and the "DEFEND" ammos have 147gr bullets though, and both bullets are almost identical if you look at them from the side. But the "TRAIN" bullets are FMJs, while the "DEFEND" bullets are JHPs. I personally can't tell any difference in recoil or noise between the two, and they both say "LESS RECOIL" on the box. Like I said though, there's a big difference in price when you consider the "TRAIN" ammo comes in a 50 round box, while the "DEFEND" ammo only comes in a 20 round box and costs about the same.
    I not running Winchester's "Train and Defend" ammo down though. I like it. But it's kind of hard to find around here.
    Edited to say: I'm guessing that the two boxes of Winchester ammo in the OP, both the "Defender" and the "Train and Defend" ammo are identical to one another. But neither is the "TRAIN" version of Winchester's "Train and Defend" ammo.:)
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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