When the question comes up as to a a good pump shotgun, it always seems to come down to the Remington 870 versus Mossberg 500 with the occasional mention of guns like Benelli thrown in. What seems conspicuous by its absence is any mention of shotguns from Winchester. Is there a reason for this?
Winchester Shotguns
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ColtPythonElite
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The Model 12 would be my choice over a 500 or 870.
cdb1
Member
The Winchester SXP is made in Turkey which turns numerous people off. Each new iteration of Winchester pumps for a while now is pretty much the same as the previous model but with manufacturing shortcuts. They are not bad shotguns except for their horrendously heavy triggers. I don’t believe them be worse than the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 Express but they sure aren’t better.
expat_alaska
Member
I agree, to a point, sir. I am an 870 Wingmaster guy.
I don't think there was ever a finer pump/slide action shotgun produced than the Model 12. My Dad had a field grade 16 gauge 28" full choke made around 1932. He restocked it with birdseye maple furniture from E. C. Bishop/reblued it with Herter's Belgian Blue about 1969/1970, back in the day when a lot of older guns were refinished by lots of gun owners. My stepmother got it when he died in 2010 and I have no idea where it is now.
Longest shot on a pheasant I ever made was a crossing shot at 60+ paces with that gun. It was lighter to carry than my 870 12 gauge 26" VR IC choke, the action was as slick as bacon grease on a doorknob, and was faster to point. I loved it, and it was my preference to use over open, hilly cornfields.
As a kid I worked at Robert's Shooting Park, Elkhorn NE, setting/pulling trap/skeet. My buddy had a Model 12 20 gauge with a Cutts Comp on it. Sweet gun, but it was LOUD!
Having said that, Winchester stopped making them about 1964 because the manufacturing process was just too expensive to compete with the 870. It was replaced with the Model 1200 which was a sad substitute for it. Even the Model 1300 upgrade was not good.
Just my $.02 worth.
Jim
I have a Winchester SXP Defender and like it a LOT (for what that model is designed to do). Before I bought it, I wondered if maybe an 870 or other pump would be better to get. I even wondered the same thing after I bought the SXP. Click here if you want to read a thread from four years ago I started about it (on another forum).
Armored farmer
Member
Remington got it right with the 870, it just works.
The model 12 is a work of art. A much higher quality piece. More pointable. Smoother. Better takedown.
.....but it won't out shoot, or outlast an 870.
Here's one of mine.
Y model trap
The model 12 is a work of art. A much higher quality piece. More pointable. Smoother. Better takedown.
.....but it won't out shoot, or outlast an 870.
Here's one of mine.
Y model trap
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cdb1
Member
If wasn’t for the SXP trigger it wouldn’t matter to me whether I had a Winchester, Mossberg or Remington.
cdb1
Member
Nice wood.
expat_alaska
Member
I think it might outshoot a Wingmaster, in the hands of a very familiar owner, performance-wise, but you are correct that it won't last as long as a Wingmaster. The 870 is a tank. The Model 12 was an elegant piece of art, plain and simple, and you are most correct about the takedown. My Dad had a canvas case just for that. Stored easily in the trunk of a car. Back in the day...
I got a kick out of the "jeweled" bolt (engine turned terminology in the day). My Dad did that to my tackdriver Remington 510A .22 bolt single shot. That is totally late 60's.
That is a beautiful Model 12 trap. The wood and design is gorgeous, but wood is a primary eye-catcher for me. Is that a Simmons rib or factory?
Thanks for sharing, sir!
Jim
Armored farmer
Member
This one is all factory. Y model trap.
My other m12 is the gun that i was shooting when my ATA average was 19th highest in the USA. Circa 1981
My other m12 is the gun that i was shooting when my ATA average was 19th highest in the USA. Circa 1981
expat_alaska
Member
Wow! That is astounding! Do you have a pic of that gun?
I was mediocre at best at skeet and never went 25 straight. Lots of 23's and 24's though in my teens.
You have a good night, sir!
Jim
Armored farmer
Member
It's pretty ordinary, but ill get you one!
Armored farmer
Member
..,forgive me.
I'e been thinking of this gun since one of my mentors and an '81 Illinois state team mate, singles champion passed away this fall.
[Thread jack finished, my apologies]
mokin
Member
I've got a Model 1300 that seems to be great, I always have my eyes open for another shotgun and frequently look at new Winchesters. The consistently inconsistent reviews turn me off.
No worries Armored farmer. I hope you can get out and bust a few targets in memory on your friend.
No worries Armored farmer. I hope you can get out and bust a few targets in memory on your friend.
Ole Joe Clark
Member
I have 2 model 12 Winchesters, (16 & 16 gauge), great firearms. I need a 12 gauge and a model 42 now. 
cdb1
Member
I’m just not in to pumps, they hurt my feet.. But if I could have my choice of SxS’s it would be a Model 21.
expat_alaska
Member
Same reason I can't wear cowboy boots anymore. Moccasins are de rigeur any more for me. I never got used to SXS guns, and my Dad had two Fox Sterlingworths, a 12 and a 20. The Model 21 was/is an excellent gun.
I am straying off thread.
I have 2 model 12 Winchesters, (16 & 16 gauge), great firearms. I need a 12 gauge and a model 42 now.
When I worked at the Shooting Park as a teen I was blessed to have a fairly old, rich gentleman offer me to shoot his beautiful Model 42 VR skeet gun and supplied me with a box of 2-1/2" shells for ONE round of skeet just to watch me fumble with it, as he had watched me smoke a station 4 high house clay one-armed with a 12 gauge 870 (which is heavy enough to not stop the swing). It was almost like shooting a rifle at clays (I think it may have been choked modified), but it was so smooth and light that I will never forget the experience, and I shot 17/25. The Model 42 is a very light gun and one must shoot it to appreciate it. I have always wanted one but the prices in the last few decades have put it on the back burner.
It was a once-in-a-lifetime delight!
Jim
Crawdad1
Member
But the Model 12 hasn't been built since 1964, that's over a half a century ago. Things have changed a lot since then. The newer Winchester shotguns never come up as most have either a Mossberg or Remington.
SwampWolf
Member
The Model 12 (as well as the Winchester Model 97) might not "outlast" the Remington Model 870 but, in my experience, it (they) will last every bit as long. In terms of durability and reliability, the well-made Browning Model BPS might just outlast all of them.
Crawdad1
Member
Well, let see, the Model 12 came out in 1912 and a lot of them are still being used and abused every day.
So we'll have to wait and see if the others can catch up, like 50 years worth of catching up. They have a long way to go.
So we'll have to wait and see if the others can catch up, like 50 years worth of catching up. They have a long way to go.
If1HitU
Member
I don't have a Winchester or know anything about them,but this one is a looker for sure.
Armored farmer
Member
This one was bought new in about 1979 atTucson after my father's M12 was stolen from the rack in front of the gun club. He bought this one nib then immediately was offered a used one that he thought fit a little better. He bought them both and began shooting the used one. My father gave it to me for my birthday in 2016.
My son is 15. There is talk of a high school trap team. This m12 may get out on the range after all these years! Wouldn' that be cool?
DDDWho
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To my mind Winchester's glory days ended in 1964. They started making more cost effective guns consequently quality suffered. They did reintroduce the Model 12 a bit later but it had stamping and was not all machined. The innards of a Model 12 (pre 64) were made to last more than 1 lifetime.
The two I own have lasted 2 lifetimes, my Dad's and an Uncle's and mine, I'm 77. Each has a few more left in them
The two I own have lasted 2 lifetimes, my Dad's and an Uncle's and mine, I'm 77. Each has a few more left in them
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expat_alaska
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DDD, both guns are fantastic looking, but the second pic is what my Dad's 12 looked like before he "made it pretty" in the late 60's. I like the short "corn cob" fore end. His was made around 1930 or so.
Long time ago...
Long time ago...
expat_alaska
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