Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Wisconsin: Police State, B'gosh

Discussion in 'Legal' started by AZRickD, Jul 24, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AZRickD

    AZRickD Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,684
    I've just received this e-mail.

    Please contact them to see how you can help. $5 from a lot of people can go a long way.

    There is more information at the web site http://www.wisconsingunowners.org

    Rick
    Phx, Az
    -------------------------------------------------

    Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:21:02 -0400
    From: Dennis Fusaro <dennyva@shentel.net

    I'm working up a RED HOT mail piece on this issue right now. Here's an overview:

    -Some punk shoots a police officer and flees on foot into a neighborhood (upper middle class suburb). The police force everyone in a quarantined area from their homes (call it an evacuation). The SWAT shows up. The Dogs show up.

    The police go door to door conducting searches TO confiscate firearms. They say they'll "give them back" as soon as ballistics tests prove they weren't used in the crime. (Guilty until proven innocent). Homeowners are outraged, making statements on camera that the police "stole" their guns without warrants!

    Others talk about the heavy-handedness of police. Then the searches spread out form this area (they didn't find the suspect apparently) and the police begin to ask for consent to search door to door. People not knowing their right to refuse such a search consent, give the okay. The police begin to take their firearms too! Gun owners are livid. One homeowner DID refuse consent. So the police (it appears) obtained a search warrant and turned the poor man's house upside down. Neighbors said they believed (in news reports) police presumed him guilty or determined reasonable suspicion for the warrant BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO CONSENT. You know -- "What'ya have to hide? Huh?"

    [Snip] -- as in original

    Thanks. I'll post the link to the news story when they come up. The Oshkosh newspaper website is down right now. You should of seen the news footage. We have a genuine police state on our hands.

    Corey Graff, Executive Director

    Wisconsin Gun Owners Inc.
    P.O. Box 338
    Green Bay, WI 54305

    http://www.wisconsingunowners.org

    [phone] 888.202.1645
    [fax] 866.208.1346
    [e-mail] executivedirector@wisconsingunowners.org

    "Wisconsin's Only No-Compromise Gun Rights Organization"
     
  2. boofus

    boofus Guest

    :barf:

    The republic is dead. :(
     
  3. FedDC

    FedDC member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    280
    Wow, there is so much misinformation in that article, I could write a thesis around it... If this post is anything like our good buddy Rick's other topics, it will rapidly descend into some cop bashing and a discertaion on how all of the LEOs are JBTs out to take away everything from your guns to your library cards...

    As I have said, for the record: I and the vast majority of my fellow LEOs srtoooooooongly support the right to bear arms, as well as nationwide CCW for all of us and in my case, the right to own any class 3 you want.

    If the officers had a reason to believe that a shooter ran into an area, the evac and search was totally justified since suspects have been known to take hostages in those situations...as in, home invasion followed by taking homeowners hostage and it ending badly. It is better to get the innocents out of the way before going on the manhunt so as to minimize the risk to the general population. As far as confiscating firearms, nobody confiscated anything. If a gun is taken to be examined as evidence and it is found not to be the gun in question, it is immediately returned. This happens a LOT in crimes with an unknown weapon and it is exactly what you would want to happen if the victim were your wife or relative.

    If anything, the citizens of that area should be thankful that the police were thoughtful enough to evacuate them from an area where a gunfitght was about to take place. The officers could very well have just said to heck with the civis and gone on the manhunt, but they chose to take care of the citizens first. Sounds like good policing to me.
     
  4. AZRickD

    AZRickD Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,684
    Thank you sir. May we have another?

    Geez. FedDC... oh, I get it now.

    If I had to evacuate everytime a perp ran into my neighborhood, then have my house broken into and my weapons seized (for my own good, of course), well, heck, I'd think I was in Bagdad.

    Rick
     
  5. buy guns

    buy guns Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Messages:
    992
    Location:
    Florida
    going from what this article said, the police clearly abused their powers. i dont know how anyone could defend that. but of course i saw this having only this article to rely on though it wouldnt surprise me if it is all true.
     
  6. FedDC

    FedDC member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    280
    Yeah, rick's right, the cops should have just let the criminal run into someone's house and take their family hostage, then execute them and take their car to get away...because god forbid that the police actually search for an attempted murder suspect.
     
  7. AZRickD

    AZRickD Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,684
    I just have to sit back and let some people take just enough rope to hang themselves.
    My point was to show the errosion of the Bill of Rights. I wasn't planning on making it personal, and I hadn't expected you to allow this to descend there, but since you put up the challenge...
    And yet guns were taken enmasse from citizens when a criminal was lurking about their neighborhood? Sure, you support the 2A right up until your Chief makes you choose between *my* rights and *your* mortgage payment.

    Yeah, that 4th and 5th amendment stuff sure does make life interesting. But let's ignore it, okay?

    Rick
     
  8. buy guns

    buy guns Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Messages:
    992
    Location:
    Florida

    well after all the SC did rule that cops have no obligation to protect us.
     
  9. FedDC

    FedDC member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    280
    I wonder what we would be seeing if the cops had not evaced anyone and had then gotten into a gunfight and a non combatant was hit.... it would be "Those gung ho cops need to be fired for not properly warning the residents and evacuating them to safety" or if they had not searched houses and the gunmand had taken a family hostage and had someone's daughter in a back room telling daddy that the bad man would kill her if he didn't tell the popo that everything was ok and he didn't need to come in... We would see outcry for not searching for the gunman. Damned if we do and damned if we don't...
     
  10. mpthole

    mpthole Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Another source: http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=2054085

    Let's see here... a cop gets shot (not killed). The suspect is believed to be in a 2 block area. The keystone cops evacuate a 6 block area. Hmmm... :confused:

    What does a homeowner say to that? "Umm, sorry officer I do not consent to a search of my home. Additionally I'd rather stay in my home where I can at least have the right to defend myself instead of having you send me off to the streets where I have already been disarmed by you (the State). Thanks anyways. Good luck in finding the bad guy."
     
  11. mpthole

    mpthole Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Safety? Where exactly is that? I'd prefer to stay in my home.
     
  12. Sergeant Bob

    Sergeant Bob Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    The Swamps of Goldwater, MI
    Oshkosh Police Have Few Leads in Officer Shooting

    Jul 19, 2004 9:43 pm US/Central
    Oshkosh Police Have Few Leads In Saturday Night's Ambush-Style Shooting, Which Wounded An Officer.
    An Unknown Gunman Opened Fire On Officer Nate Gallagher, Hitting His Right Arm.
    It Happened At The Corner Of Minnesota Street And West 17th Avenue After Ten O'clock Saturday Night.
    Officer Gallagher Was Standing Next To His Squad Car Talking To Another Officer When He Was Hit.
    The Officers Had Responded To A Call Of An Underage Drinking Party A Couple Block Away.
    After The Shooting, The Swat Team Confiscated Firearms From At Least Two Homes In The Neighborhood. There Is No Word As To Whether The Guns Were Used In The Shooting.

    WFRV.com

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oshkosh
    Police Get Arrest Warrants in Shooting of Officer

    By Jerry Burke and WBAY.com

    Oshkosh police said Monday night they obtained two arrest warrants in the shooting of a police officer. Police say they know the two suspects they're looking for but didn't know their whereabouts, but they expected to make arrests soons.

    Officer Nate Gallagher was shot in the arm while he responded to a call Saturday night. He was released from the hospital Sunday morning. He was shot at the intersection of Minnesota Street and 17th Avenue which is near Wittman Field.

    Police searched a home in the 1700-block of Minnesota Street and obtained enough evidence to issue arrests warrants, they said.

    Oshkosh detectives remained tight-lipped in their investigation Monday afternoon. Sgt. Steve Sagmeister of the Oshkosh Police Department said, "[Sunday] morning they executed a search warrant in the 1700-block of Minnesota and they collected some evidence, and at the present time they're sifting through the evidence to see if there's something there that'll link to the shooting."

    Detectives wouldn't say what evidence they found. They aren't saying if the shooting is tied to the drinking party.

    The shooting happened right outside Terry Wesner's house. He was watching TV when he heard what he instantly recognized was a gunshot. He's also pretty sure he knows from where the shot was fired.

    "The way [Officer Gallagher] was standing behind the car here, I thought maybe it came from this way," Wesner described, "but I'm sure it was from this side over here because when I heard the noise I would have never heard it from down that way. It had to be down here probably a hundred yards."

    Wesner says police had yellow tape around one house until late Sunday afternoon.

    Wesner says he and his neighbors aren't used to any crime happening in this neighborhood. "It's sort of scary, a little bit, you know, when you think there's somebody out here with a gun... if he's after cops or is he going to just shoot somebody else?"

    Police are keeping a high profile in the neighborhood.

    W
    BAY.com

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Posted July 18, 2004

    Police officer shot
    Wounded responding to foot chase

    By Jeff Bollier
    of The Northwestern

    An Oshkosh police officer was shot Saturday night responding to a foot chase near the intersection of Iowa Street and 17th Avenue. A large area near the scene was cordoned off and nearby residents evacuated late Saturday as authorities searched for a suspect.

    The officer, whose name is not being released, was taken to Mercy Medical Center with injuries that were not life threatening, Sgt. Matt Kroenig said.

    Kroenig said the officer responded to the area to back up an officer involved in a foot chase near Iowa Street and 17th Avenue at 10:10 p.m. when an unknown assailant with a gun of unknown caliber shot the officer.

    Kroenig said the foot chase was in response to an underage drinking complaint.

    The Oshkosh Police Department’s Special Weapons and Tactics Unit and an emergency command center responded to the area late Saturday night. At press time, the suspect was believed to be in a house within a two-block area near the shooting. Police sealed off a six-block area.

    Kroenig said it is unknown where the shot came from that hit the officer.

    Merrilee Jones was house sitting in the area and said about the time of the shooting she heard what she mistook for fireworks.

    Jones also said she saw someone sneak across 18th Avenue north of Arizona Street and between two homes.

    “The cops were already down here and someone snuck through,†Jones said. “They were running and obviously trying to hide.â€

    Residents in the area were not being allowed to return to their homes as of press time.

    A K-9 police dog was also seen in the area sniffing near homes at the intersection of 18th Avenue and Arizona Street.

    Officers from the Winnebago County Sheriff’s Department and Wisconsin State Patrol responded to the scene to assist with the Oshkosh Police Department’s investigation.

    Oshkosh Northwestern
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ‘Person of interest’ let go in Oshkosh shooting case

    No bail required for man on charges of growing marijuana


    Gannett Wisconsin Newspapers

    OSHKOSH — Winnebago County prosecutors were denied their request for a $50,000 cash bond Tuesday in the drug case of a man who is a “person of interest†in the Saturday shooting of an Oshkosh police officer.

    The 50-year-old suspect and his 44-year-old wife were released Tuesday from the Winnebago County Jail after being charged in Winnebago County Circuit Court with one felony charge each of manufacturing marijuana.

    Police served a search warrant in their Minnesota Street home during their investigation of the Saturday shooting. Police found a marijuana plant sitting on the kitchen table, growing equipment in the basement and a plastic bag containing marijuana, the criminal complaint states.

    Charges have not been filed relating to the unprovoked attack of officer Nate Gallagher, who was wounded in the right arm late Saturday while talking to another officer near the intersection of Minnesota Street and 17th Avenue.

    Deputy Dist. Atty. John Jorgensen sought the $50,000 bail to keep the man in custody until police processed more evidence. He suggested another bond hearing in a few days to reconsider bail based on what police found. Investigators sought a search warrant for the home after determining that its location matched the trajectory of the bullet that struck Gallagher, he said.

    Police searched their home in the 1700 block of Minnesota Street on Sunday morning. They returned Monday to search the home and yard. A Monday evening phone message placed at the couple’s home by reporters was not returned.

    Jorgensen said Tuesday that the man was “somewhat uncooperative†after police sought consent to search without a warrant, and the couple left Oshkosh for Crivitz once a search warrant was obtained, he said. The man and his wife later turned themselves over to police on the marijuana charges.

    Defense attorney Brian Mares argued against Jorgensen’s attempt to have bond address both the marijuana charge and an uncharged shooting.

    The Post-Crescent
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  13. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,737
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Some perp kicks in my door holding a firearm, he's getting a world of hurt. I did once had a police officer knock on my door regarding a suspect in the area. I thanked the officer for the notice, told him I'd keep a lookout, and went about my business. Both of us were civil and polite.

    If the police officer had wanted to search my place, I'd kindly ask for a warrant. If no warrant exists, sorry. Trying to forcefully evacuating me and disarming me? I call my lawyer. They can discuss the situation with him.

    FedDC, like it or not, this is America. Not Baghdad, not Moscow, not some third world hellhole. Safety is balanced with civil rights. I'm sure that is an annoyance to some law enforcement officers, but that's how it is. Law enforcement officers should realize this when they sign up. It's part of the job.


    Did the police collect all firearms, or just the type used in the shooting? If the shooting was done with a handgun, why collect up rifles and shotguns? It'd be a bit of a waste of money to ballastically check every weapon, even if it was not the type used in the shooting.

    I'm not trying to trash all police. I understand how annoying it can be to deal with some of the stressful situations they deal with. However, they have laws they must comply with, just like us "civilians". If they abid by the laws, I'll do my best to help them in the most civil way possible. Violating the law, even with the best of intentions, is not a good thing.
     
  14. AZRickD

    AZRickD Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,684
    Another article

    http://www.wisinfo.com/northwestern/print/stories/print_17030135.shtml
     
  15. Sergeant Bob

    Sergeant Bob Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    The Swamps of Goldwater, MI
    mpthole, dagnabbit! Ya scooped me while I was researching! Just when I hit paydirt! Caught lookin' I guess. :D

    Is it SOP to evacuate six block areas when a cop is wounded?
    How about when a civilian is wounded?

    Weapons were confiscated from two different homes, neither of which they have a clue as to whether they were involved.

    Someone busted for marijuana during this "evacuation" for their safety. I guess since he was a "person of interest" (you know, a suspect, but we're not really going to call them a suspect since we really have no clue) it's OK to search his home (being a person of interest gives them PC or "reasonable suspicion", I guess). Nevermind the likelyhood they probably weren't interested in him untill they found the evil weed.

    I guess anytime the cops want to score big all they have to do is evacuate six block areas, for the safety of the people, then they have free reign to search every house and bust anyone they want for whatever they find.

    I'm seeing some constitutional conflict here.

    "Send Lawyers, Guns, and Money" Warren Zevon
     
  16. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,929
    Location:
    Indiana
    FedDC, in the event of a hostage situation THEN you evac the immediate area. Not six blocks.

    You don't search each house and confiscate firearms.

    You don't harrass a person simply because he refuses to an evac request(which is generally all the cops can do, request) and you do not trash his house for refusing a search without a warrant.

    Want to know one of the things that furthers the anti-LEO mindset? LEO actions such as yours here. There's a time to defend the actions of the police and there is a time to say something is over the top. This is an example of the latter and your "piling on" to defend it simply reflects an even worse light on yourself and your profession.
     
  17. Justin Moore

    Justin Moore Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Gun Range
    Well Seig HEIL!

    Methinks its lawsuit time.

    Dude its not for the people, its for THE CHILDREN ;)
     
  18. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    6,986
    Location:
    SE Wisconsin
    FedDC-
    If this happened in my neighborhood, I can take care of my own household, thankyou very much. The police would surely be welcome in my home if they think a suspect is at large or could be in my home, but if nothing turns up, they should go back to solving a crime instead of bothering me.
     
  19. Rabbi

    Rabbi Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    MI
    And some otherwise rational police officers actually wonder why the anti-LEO sentiment is growing in leaps and bounds?

    People who are totally straight, that is law abiding in every way, are talking about this kind of thing EVERYWHERE. Regular citizens who have been lifelong supporters of the police as a profession are growing very afraid, and the average person who is afraid long enough will begin to hate. The bad cops, that is the bullies, the anti-citizen storm troopers and the regular good, honest cops who defend them constantly have brought this on themselves. Twenty years ago in the real world, if a P.O. was in a jam, citizens would have jumped in to help them in a heartbeat. I'm afraid for you guys in uniform now that most citizens would turn away. The "us-against-them" mentality started with the police and enough of us heard citizens defined as "as*hol*s" to start wondering.

    I get angry when I hear anybody lump all cops together as JBTs or fascists or the newest one, "blue taliban". However, when unconscionable and unconstitutional acts by P.O.s are condoned and encouraged by the "good cops", what the hell do you expect citizen reaction to be? When the Wisconsin legislature allows the police to forcefully eject citizens from their homes and seize privately owned firearms during warrantless searches because they think maybe a suspect is still in the area, a Police State already exists.

    Do you guys seriously expect any American citizen to support this? I think police officers were much better off when the public thanked you and admired you and respected you than what you have seemingly worked so hard to achieve. If you wanted Joe Citizen to fear you, and I think that is exactly what a lot of LEOs want, it seems you have achieved it. But don't be surprised when that fear sours into hatred. A lot of citizens still support and appreciate the "thin blue line" and I wonder why the law enforcement community would consciously alienate them. Do you guys ever wonder about that? Do you care? Or do you all just dismiss us as "as*hol*s"?
     
  20. Powderman

    Powderman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,626
    Location:
    Washington State
    OK.

    On the face of it, going by the first post, it seems like a lot---and I mean a LOT--or unreasonable search and seizure was taking place.

    But, here's my question--

    What's the OTHER side of the story?

    How did the police focus their investigation on one or two specific households?

    What firearms were removed? Were they removed from houses in the line of sight, or line of fire of the incident?

    Were search warrants obtained, and executed properly?

    In other words, let's all cool off and look at BOTH sides of the story. We darned sure don't have all of the information--and probably won't have it for a long time.
     
  21. Sergeant Bob

    Sergeant Bob Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    The Swamps of Goldwater, MI
    I don't know, we'll probably have to wait a few days till they all get their stories straight.
    You know, the usual "Can't comment on an ongoing investigation" stuff.

    That'll give six blocks worth of people time to get lawyered up too.
     
  22. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,506
    Location:
    east Texas
    If what was described by the first article occured as written - and I admit I'm skeptical - there's going to be a number of lawsuits and a big payout from the city - and rightfully so. The only way the police should have had the right to search would be if they had identified a particular house, not a six block area. I'd like to hear from our board attorney on this one.

    I strongly suspect that when homeowners - and I'll bet you there were some, told the police "bite me, I ain't leaving my house and you ain't coming in" they just moved on to the next house on the block.
     
  23. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Headin back to Johnson City
    FedDC
    This whole statement made me want to :barf:

    Depty Dawg: " while we got these here guns and doing ballistic tests on em, lets see if they match any other shootings we have that are unsolved".

    LEO bashing-NO. Oshkosh police bashing- most definitley. I hope they ( OPD) get sued personally for every thing they got and ever will have. Hopefully jail time.
     
  24. FedDC

    FedDC member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    280
    Well, at the end of the day, the cops on the scene had reason to believe that a suspect ran into that area and whether you like it or not, the USSC has reuled again and again that under circumstances such as those, the exigent nature of the situation allows the officer to go into any building that they believe the suspect may be hiding in. It is just that simple. So, no, there will be no successful suits and nobody will get fired or even reprimanded. When you are chasing a suspect, you chase him to wherever he goes and the courts have upheld that principal time and again. Why don't we try blaming the CRIMINAL that tried to kill someone instead of the police that were trying to arrest him.

    As to the guns, it doesn't say that the officers just randomly confiscated everybody's guns. They may very well have taken guns matching the type and appearance used the crime and if the guns are not found to be assosciated with the crime, they will be returned. To leave potential evidence in the hands of someone that may be a friend or assosciate of the suspect would be retarded...how fast do you think that evidence would vanish?

    If you don't like living in a civil society with law enforcement, feel free to move someplace like oh.....the Sudan. You could try practicing what you preach and fending off crime all by yourself without those annoying LEOs coming to help. After all, you would be able to get class 3 and live in the paradise that so many people on here seem to seek where there aren't any of those pesky LEOs to harass you...but then again, most people over there don't live long enough to worry about harassment.
     
  25. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,251
    Location:
    Colorado Springs Colorado
    There it is again...

    The standard LEO cliche that indicates they have come to the end of their reasonable responses and must regress into (I need backup here, don't know what to say...) the textbook response to justify to themselves that they are the good guys and are screwing us for our own good.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2004
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page