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"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Corpral_Agarn, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Had an interesting phone conversation with a local combat sports gym.

    I am interested in learning things like no gi Jiu-Jitsu and Mauy Thai so I called and asked about pricing/schedule etc.

    Anyway the guy asked me what I was looking to get out of it and I mentioned that I am a firearms instructor and wanted to bridge the gap in my hands on skills for self defense and general fitness purposes.

    He tells me, "well, without fighting skills, you are just a walking holster, right? You need to learn how to retain that gun."

    I let the comment go, but it rubbed me the wrong way. I don't think this guy knows much about the kind of shooting people interested in self defense are engaged in.

    Is this a common attitude in the combat sports?

    Either way I go to check it out on Monday.
     
  2. drband

    drband Member

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    Chances are, if I’m attacked unexpectedly, my gun will be in its holster or in my front pocket in a holster. Weapon retention is important for holstered guns as well as a drawn weapon. I need that training. I would take no offense at that statement from that instructor. After all, even with pretty good situational awareness, I could still be surprised and I bet most concealed carriers could be.
     
  3. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Its not only about retaining a gun. Most self defense encounters don't call for deadly force. You can't shoot someone who takes a swing at you. You need to have different layers of force to use. Hand to hand, pepper spray, firearms.
     
  4. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Cue the famous scene from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in which Indiana Jones just shrugs and shoots the guy who's threatening him with a big sword.

    That's what "martial arts" really amount to, in the real world. Empty gestures. When so many people are carrying guns, anything less is just liable to get you killed.
     
  5. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    This is the reason I am interested (plus fitness). Things happen fast, i'm a small dude, draw speed is never going to be instant, etc.

    I just found the comment lacking... experience/wisdom/familiarity? I don't know the exact word for it.
     
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  6. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I hold essentially the same attitude, since having my eyes opened by force-on-force training. I get the impression I rub gun people the wrong way when I bring it up. I suspect that a lot of us honestly have too much faith in the gun and don't appreciate being confronted with the idea that it's not nearly enough. Having said that, a little tact goes a long way, which is something both me and the guy in the OP's gym should probably pay more attention to.

    <edit> Having said that, I note that I didn't really answer the question. The gyms that I go to (or went to, back in those golden pre-Covid days) were a mix of Krav, Muay Thai, Martial Blade Concepts, and no rules force-on-force. Of those, I'd say the Muay Thai guys were the least concerned about gunplay and usually had no opinion on it. The Krav guys spend a lot of time defending from weapons, and essentially none on using them. The knife guys have a pretty good idea how vulnerable the gun guys can be, especially in close, and the force-on-force guys know how messy a fight is likely to be regardless. The latter group can be pretty condescending toward the folks who really believe in their guns, as they've seen how ineffective guns can be in realistic fighting scenarios.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  7. drband

    drband Member

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    This post is why we should be able to rate responses in degrees, LOL! This post deserves a rating of WINNER!
     
  8. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    In my seventh decade of life, I have serious reservations about going hand to hand with another individual. This is in part why I preach avoidance of stupid people places and things. In my younger days I did a certain amount of boxing and spared with much better boxers than I. Some of those individuals medaled in the Pan American Games. Why they even spared with me was because I was left handed.
     
  9. Dirtybob

    Dirtybob Member

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    I've had a fair bit of martial arts training and in my experience there are certain guys you just don't want to be too close to during a confrontation, armed or not (I am NOT claiming to be one of them). It has been said before - you never know who you might be dealing with.
     
  10. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    I have studied various martial arts for many decades and for several years was on a (what is now called MMA) team. Now that I am old and decrepit I would not rely on my physical skills (however I did have an unexpected fall recently and instinctually rolled out of it ;) ) My instinctual skills, awareness, etc are still fully intact.

    What I do now is:

    1. Level II holster (or thumb break) if OWB.
    2. Fully concealed
    3. Fighting knife (I use a Kershaw Launch 1 auto) easily accessable from either hand.
    4. Practice stabbing the hand or an assailant behind me grabbing for my gun.

    I encourage everyone to study martial arts. Go to the best instructor in your area. The particular style does not matter so much ... what matters is that it is defense oriented and challenges you.

    I have studied several styles. For defense purposes I would suggest Krav Maga ... all else being equal ^^^
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  11. dh1633pm
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    dh1633pm Contributing Member

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    My son came home from the Marines on leave when he got back from Iraq. He talked about body language and how to use it to attack. Passive to aggressive he called it. He said watch, next thing I knew he had his foot on the center of my chest. No he didn't hurt dad, just showed me how he could look passive and then go aggressive. I would guess that it would be good to know how to handle yourself with or without a holster.
     
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  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Physical defensive skills are great for those fit enough to develop them, but one should not rely too much on them for weapon retention.

    They cannot defend against a hard blow on the head from behind.

    Rely on concealment, a quick draw, and quick shots wiithout unnecessarily extending the arm.

    And stay alert for the accomplice.
     
  13. aarondhgraham

    aarondhgraham Member

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    It is,,,
    And he wants your lesson money.

    It's not to say he's totally incorrect,,,
    But a trained martial artist might shorten that "Tueller Distance" a bit.

    Way back in time I earned a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do,,,
    Took 6 years total but I was legitimate.

    That's when I was an Airman stationed in Korea.

    In every encounter I ever got into,,,
    I would much rather have had a firearm.

    Aarond

    .
     
  14. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    Physical strength, fitness and mobility is always important regardless of the situation when SHTF. Because of this, practicing what you know is most important. Second, expanding into things you don’t know, like martial arts, is important as well.

    When it does turn ugly, any weapon that increases the fighting distance will rule the day. It has since the beginning of time. Ninjas are cool, but they had no real chance against the Marines in the Pacific theater in WW2, for instance.
     
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  15. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    A lot of the types of martial arts I see being taught leave me a bit bewildered as to what exactly is trying to be achieved.

    In the military, I learned a style of fighting that was originally taught to OSS personnel by William Fairbairn. I admit, that style may be a little heavy handed for your average “encounter” but it only took a few weeks to master. Not several years later, I was again taught a version of this fighting at a LEO academy. You know, cops who usually carry a gun openly and have a critical need to maintain gun retention when things go south.

    I wouldn’t begin to say that I am still up to snuff in that discipline but defensive and offensive martial arts should begin and end with swift and severe action.
     
  16. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    The guy could be a little less abrasive, but at least he mentioned weapon retention. Some martial arts instructors focus only on their art's techniques, without attempting to address other factors, like carrying a gun. Also, it's good that he asked what you wanted to get out of the training, because again, some just teach techniques and don't address individual goals.
     
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  17. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Most - I'd say the vast majority- of " martial arts" is sport and not fighting.
     
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  18. mcb

    mcb Member

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    OP I think the guy at the combat sports gym was right to a point. The firearm and martial arts (and many other tools and skills) are all viable things to extract your arse from a bad situation. The more "tools/skills" in your bag of tricks the better. Luck favors the prepared.
     
  19. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Technically, defensive gun training is a "martial art". I know the term leads some people to envision bad Kung Fu movies, but that does not mean that there are no reality-based unarmed fighting techniques. Krav Maga, as one example, does try - and often succeeds - at being relevant rather than fanciful.

    Things like Krav also do not require youth and fitness, so that is not a reasonable argument against them. I have trained in Krav with 70 year old women and 400 pound men.

    The short version is this: it is entirely possible that at the start of the fight you might not have enough time to get to your gun, regardless of how alert you are and regardless of how fast your draw might be. Learning a few skills that might allow a gun man to buy critical time and space; to "earn the draw", is a worthwhile thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  20. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    You know how we keep bringing up that most defensive shootings happen within 10 feet or so? Yep, that's practically arm's reach. And if you consider that roughly 15% of active shooters are disarmed by unarmed people, that instructor was completely, totally right. Being able to even free up a hand to get to your firearm might easily require some physical fighting skills.

    If you want to be as safe as possible, you need to cover 'the ranges'; grappling, striking, impact weapon and distance weapons. With a firearm, you're only really covering the last.

    Larry
     
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  21. Dibbs

    Dibbs Member

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    Look at it this way, you are adding a personal skill. That's always a good thing. I'd go for it.
     
  22. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    yep.
     
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  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Really?

    "As of May 2017, Pincus found that 86 percent of defensive shooting situations occurred at distances from 9 to 15 feet (Rob quotes the 9- to 15-foot range from data collected by Rangemaster Tom Givens.) Moving back to 21 feet covers 90 percent of gunfights, with 5 percent occurring beyond 21 feet and 5 percent occurring closer than 9 feet".​

    My arms aren't that long.

    Active shooter =/= armed defender, unless he is mobbed.
     
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  24. Ohen Cepel
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    Ohen Cepel Contributing Member

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    He wants your money and may lack some tact (I'm always smooth as silk myself :)

    That said, if you're into it, give it a go.
     
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  25. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Go to the you-tube, and search for things such as Shivworks ECQC. Firearms instruction with live-fire and “sim” guns, weapon retention, weapons take-way, hands-on defense, the whole enchilada. A gunfight is a fight that happens to involve the presence of a gun.
     
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