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"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Corpral_Agarn, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. shafter

    shafter Member

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    My first exposure to BJJ was an extremely humbling experience. I was clearly stronger than anyone in the room and figured I could at least hold my own with this grappling stuff. Boy was I wrong. I could do nothing but accept the dozen different ways they tied me into a knot. . .and these weren't black belts.

    It doesn't take very much training for a reasonably fit person to be able to destroy someone who hasn't trained. There are a lot of people out there who have trained for a few months and dropped out for whatever reason and many of them are criminals. Training is important not only for you to know what to do, but also to recognize what they other person is trying to do to you. If you can tell in advance that the other guy is trying to go for a chokehold, or to break your arm, might that change the level of force you're allowed to use?
     
  2. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    It is like being married to the wrong one. Itll cost yiu money to back out
    Maybe that was a bad analogy. If you pick wrong it will cost you. Either a divorce or getting out of the contract. Been lucky on both fronts. My judo instructor was awesome so is my wife.
     
  3. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Yup! I trained in Gracie Jiujitsu, where they hold everyone to a high standard. Usually it takes (from what I recall) around 2 years to get past white belt to blue belt. All based on performance of course. But it's not like a striking martial art, where backing up or running away is option. You know as well as I do, once you're tangled up on the ground with a foe, there's no easy way to disengage from that, unless you know what you're doing.
     
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  4. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Just jumping in is how I got started in competition shooting many years ago. And working on old trucks/jeeps.

    It works for me. Your mileage probably varies.

    That's said, terrible analogy LOL

    ETA: it's $15, to check out all the classes for a day.
    I can swing it.
     
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  5. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    There was a thread somewhere awhile back. I can't even remember what it was about, or what the specific post was about. In fact, the only thing I remember about it was @FL-NC (paraphrased) had said his assumption is that whoever is in front of him can fight or shoot just as well if not better than him.
    If he reads this, perhaps he can clarify if I've misquoted him too terribly, but that made a lot of sense to me.
    I also took 2 lessons from that outlook. #1, there's no guarantee you're going to be the most capable or prepared in that confrontation, no matter how capable and prepared you are.
    #2 if I assume the guy facing me is capable of hurting me just as badly as I him, then I'm reverting to one of the earliest things I learned. Whatever is necessary to end that confrontation as quickly as possible with as little chance of suffering injury to myself.
    If it gets to the point where I'm rolling around in gravel, wondering if I'm defending against a guillotine choke hold or a potential knife to the back of my neck, my training was futile.
     
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  6. Tortuga

    Tortuga Member

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    I'm going to take the high road her and just say that comment sounds to me like somebody who doesn't have a significant amount of martial arts experience. :confused:


    Firstly, as someone who has both military training and several martial arts decorations, stuff like this is why so many people don't take firearms enthusiasts seriously. Having a firearm and knowing how to use it is great, but it's actually pretty easy to take that weapon off of someone or knock it out of their hand in a fraction of a second -- especially if they're untrained or scared. This is why infantry soldiers have their hair cut short and still learn martial arts techniques in basic. In fact, police academies still teach that someone can easily clear 10 feet and close in on someone by the time a trained officer can draw their weapon and effectively engage the target. I can only imagine what that number is for a civilian with a CCW that isn't in shape or who isn't actively training as part of their profession. Seeing as most shootings happen within 15 feet, a lot of gun enthusiasts either do not realize or are not aware that having a firearm is not really an advantage at that distance. I know it's a firearms forum and I'm kind of new to be throwing around unpopular opinions, but I've seen too many proud keyboard warrior military fetishist types get their tushies beaten in real life and their firearms not saving them. Avoiding conflict is the best thing, but anyone can have their car break down in a seedy area.

    Secondly, you can't just use lethal force whenever you want. If someone aggressively approaches you outside of Chuck E. Cheese and you think they want to fight or rob you, the truth is that's likely not enough to protect you in court if you draw out your handgun and go to town. You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you were in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, and even police officers are having a hard time in the modern era illustrating proportional force in textbook justifiable circumstances that are objectively recorded on video. Maybe if you're an elderly or disabled person this might work, but most likely an impending potential fistfight doesn't justify a shooting in court of law. In fact, most of the time I've seen muggings or fights, the danger isn't obvious until someone throws a sucker punch or a wild haymaker out of nowhere. So if your defense is "anything less than using a gun is just liable to get you killed," your options are most likely hard time in prison, getting shot with your own weapon, or getting beaten to death.

    Thirdly, people grossly overestimate their hand to hand combat skills, their fitness, and their gross motor skills. The latter is the most important because the process of drawing really quickly on the range and hitting a stationary target is nowhere close to how your hand moves when you have significant cortisol and adrenaline in your body. I've seen a karate instructor have trained individuals pull a handgun out within arms length and knock it out of their hand one after another. I've seen police officers have their weapons wrestled out of their hands. When things get stressful or scary, stuff happens really fast. So many overweight, out of shape, poorly coordinated, downright unhealthy people are completely out of touch with reality as to how they would react in a real altercation. When most people are hit hard for the first time in the head, they freeze up. It's very common, and taking martial arts will get you past this point so that you know how to react naturally without thinking about it. Hard sparring will prepare you for this, and the idea that this isn't "the real world" is not something I've seen play out in real life.

    Fourth and perhaps most importantly, you might simply find yourself in a situation where you don't have immediate access to a firearm or you don't have a safe shot. If someone approaches you with intent to cause serious bodily injury but there's a crowd behind them, the truth is you're not going to realistically be able to shoot them. If you want to retreat or move such that your backstop is better, that's groovy, but that martial arts training is going to be part of the fitness and agility you're going to need to do that.

    As far as the comment made by that instructor, the notion of a "walking holster" is a bit presumptuous about your abilities, but I respectfully say it's most likely not inaccurate for the average CCW. You don't know when someone is necessarily going to be a threat, and you can't draw you're weapon until you're ready to use it. In many cases, that's way too late. Taking Basic Muay Thai or BJJ will be great for your overall fitness and combat skills. As someone who has had both, I highly recommend it and did not realize what I was missing until I took those classes.

    I know this comment was long and I honestly expect to get a lot of hate on here for this, but I really hope it helps someone. Please don't become a statistic.
     
  7. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Well said Tortuga.
     
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  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    No, the state has to prove beyond reasonable dough that you did not.
     
  9. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Yep, close enough.
     
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  10. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    This is why every session in the gym/dojo is as valuable as every session at the range. I haven't been in a gunfight in over 10 years, but I do what I can to stay as ready as possible for the next one (if there is a next one). Whether at the range or on the mat, the student should do his or he utmost to incrementally improve performance, or at minimum sustain the current level. The range or dojo also trains your mind in that it should be inoculating you to interpersonal violence.
     
  11. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    People also forget how old they are. Some people still have in their mind that their abilities are what they were 20 years ago. Another reason that we shouldn't let the fight that plays out in our head mislead us.
     
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  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep.
     
  13. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    A VERY good point. I would caveat that a more accurate statement would be for the untrained or "very rusty" individual to step into the ring and have a go in any discipline with a junior student in a given discipline. Which brings up another discussion. My background (pre army) was judo and wrestling, and I was pretty decent at both. In the military, we trained in various techniques that involved strictly hand to hand, tactics where various weapons were involved, low light, street clothes, full kit, etc. It would be difficult at best for a civilian to access this type of training. I decided to "up my game" with MMA. Of course, my grappling/wrestling/judo placed me at an advantage, but the guys who are good at striking made life very interesting for me. I could still get a good ground fight going, but I usually had to sustain a few punches to get there. I added a session of kickboxing every week to improve my striking. The kickboxing classes are useful, but mostly teach techniques and drills- sparring is after class and optional. The MMA classes go much harder, from start to finish. It is very telling to see those who are "primarily strikers" go to ground and get completely lost in the sauce, or the grapplers who get repeatedly smashed trying to close distance (like me at the beginning). Even more telling is the amounts of students in the jit class and kickbox class, and the small core of students training in MMA. Comparatively speaking, our MMA classes are brutal. MOST of the MMA students have at least a presence in kickboxing and/or jit, but when MMA is in session, the parking lot is just about empty. I truly believe that MMA is the most diverse form of martial arts that adds to the tool box, at least as far as unarmed combat goes. I didn't choose MMA- MMA chose me.
     
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  14. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    Here are two guys in really good shape. They start with the "gun guy" already in a terrible position.

    Good stuff starts at 7:30 minutes.

     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  15. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    John spent several years in Ranger bn. As nice of a guy as he is, he is by no means someone to take lightly.
     
  16. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    Which is also a terrible way to defend against multiple attackers, but a fantastic way to get clubbed in the head by someone you're not engaged with.
    Not sure how training works with the MMA stuff nowadays, but for someone who's training, I'd like to know:
    Do they train you to stop when someone taps, or with a whistle? Do they instruct to just apply the force needed to make the opponent quit? Only asking because I've never seen a fight on the street end with a tap-out.
     
  17. Tortuga

    Tortuga Member

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    This is very much to my earlier point about gun enthusiasts being woefully unfamiliar with martial arts. Case in point, this is not a "terrible position." This is what's known in Brazilian Jujitsu as being "in guard." The major doctrine of BJJ is that being on your back is just as much as an advantage as being on top, and you can easy choke someone out / break one of their appendages from on your back as you can on top. People who have no training try to get on top and think that puts them at an inherent advantage, but it isn't.


    Depends on how you train and who your gym is. Some go really hard. Some are McDojos. Other's are basically fitness clubs to help weaker people feel empowered. The gyms I've gone to actually have had real life crisis training where you literally fend off multiple attackers. But basically all end the fight when you tap. Tapping early and often is encouraged to avoid injury, but it's with the understanding that in a real conflict you won't just be able to tap out. That doesn't make the training any less real because you aren't breaking someone's arm or choking someone to death.
     
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  18. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    That was my experience way back when, too. But that was also in a time where MMA was in its infancy, and a person had to literally learn multiple disciplines and combine them to make their own MMA.
    I was mostly curious as to whether the training now might be more geared toward sanctioned competition instead of "don't look for a tap. Plan on breaking his arm and we'll stop it before you do"
    Mostly because in a real world fight, a tap doesn't mean the fight won't continue as soon as you let go, any more than an attack won't re-occur as soon as you holster your gun.
     
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  19. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    I no longer train because repeated injuries began to prevent me from doing my job (which is how I paid for the training). It's possible to fight through ligament damage in the moment, but that type of injury is debilitating for weeks or months after the session is over.

    However, my point was not to promote BJJ as a primary martial art. I've done 2 on 1 scenarios that didn't even involve striking. It's hard to prevail in those, nevermind win. And yes, ending up on the ground with someone whilst their buddy attacks you is not fun. That's why knowing how to disengage and get up fast is important. But a good school will also teach enough elements of judo (or standing grappling, you might call it), to hopefully prevent you ending up on the ground in the first place. Footwork, balance, counter-force, redirection. They all play a part in that. And that if you do go to the ground, you are more likely to gain an advantageous position through the takedown/fall.

    My point was that unlike a stand-up fight which is mostly striking, where you can move away, or laterally, or get behind something, run around objects, climb over stuff, or just run away; once you're on the ground, if you don't have the training to get free, you also don't have the training to prevail and are at your attacker's mercy. And as you pointed out, there are no tap outs.
     
  20. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    Agree 100%, which is why defending against going to the ground could arguably be just as important as learning how to fight on the ground. Getting off the ground in a self-defense scenario is pretty important too. Not that ground fighting skills would never be useful outside the gym or ring, but I'm positively sure that I've taken more damage from rocks and broken glass on the ground than I ever did from whoever I was on the ground with. Along with the occasion where the angry/scared/drunk girlfriend or buddy kicked me in the face while we were down there.
     
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  21. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    When I mentioned taking Judo, and then realizing I needed striking skills, that's exactly what was happening. You took all the 'arts' and tried to make a complete 'fighting' skillset out of them, each adding another range or dimension to what you already had.

    Larry
     
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  22. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    One of the things I learned from force-on-force is that, even with training, I'm a lousy wrestler. Time away from the gym - and about 15 extra pounds around the belly - have not done much to improve that, I figure. The takeaway is that if I'm ever in a "serious" fight that goes to the ground, the rules go out the window. I can't win the kind of fight shown in the video and I'd be gassed after thirty seconds, so my only option is to start stabbing groins and digging out eyeballs. I wouldn't have known that unless I'd done the training.
     
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  23. TomJ
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    TomJ Contributing Member

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    I've been involved in martial arts since the mid 80's and have had my sons involved in it as well. You need to remember that these schools are businesses and need students (customers). In my area, the Chicago suburbs, the overwhelming percentage of schools do not teach self defense that's worth anything. The instructors at those schools tend to have that condescending attitude. Martial arts are a complement to, not a replacement for carrying a firearm. That would have been a more accurate answer from this instructor.
     
  24. Whiskeyhotel2020

    Whiskeyhotel2020 Member

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    I remind myself that any confrontation that I am involved in there is automatically a firearm there mine.
     
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  25. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Flexibility, meaning tendons and other connective, can suffer with age. Also, even if the overall abilities are maintained (or even somewhat improved upon with age and successful experience), it's the way aging can affect our ability to absorb and withstand the same amount of impact or stress trauma, and continue to effectively function, that needs to be kept in the back of the mind.

    I remember the dojo's at the end of the 60's and into the 70's. Lots of "belt mills". Traditional or "mysterious" styles. Introductory "self defense lessons" for the first 30-90 days, etc. You could choose among places that turned out dancers/stylists, or sport fighters (before the days of safety equipment beginning to mean something other than a cup), or fighters. A real hodge podge.
     
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