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"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Corpral_Agarn, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Are you retired? how do you fit all that in??

    With the two jobs, the ranch and some resemblance of seeing/keeping my wife happy, I'm lucky if I get 2-3 nights a week for BJJ
     
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  2. hq

    hq Member

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    In that case none of the hardcore disciplines are for you.

    All training happens with contact, deliberately at 20-50%, but every once in a while someone gets a bit carried away and stuff happens. Mainly at lower practitioner levels but a fellow expert broke my wrist once without even thinking about it, semi-unintentionally. That was the most effective technique to break out of a joint lock I had managed to secure. I didn't even mind that much when I was taken to ER, no rules means no rules and that's the name of the game.

    Learning curve is very steep, though.
     
  3. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Hard to keep training with a broken wrist...

    incurring injuries just sounds like a big step backwards for any kind of training...

    So far you've mentioned ribs and a wrist... Can't ride a horse or rope with broken ribs/wrist. Can't run and gun. Can't really do the shooting I do. Can't teach classes effectively...

    You're right, "hardcore" disciplines are not for me LOL

    At just over one month of any kind of training under my belt, I'm no badass.
     
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  4. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Retired and disabled both. I typically have to see one type of dr or another a couple times a week.
     
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  5. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    When I was serious about Muay Thai I was training about 10 hours a week and constantly injured. There was always something sore, something healing, and some horrifying bruise somewhere. It became obvious that it was time to "retire" from fighting - even though the fights were the lowest level amateur stuff set up between local gyms - when I started having to go to urgent care after every match. It got into sort of a downward spiral of "Get fit, have a fight, get hurt, lose fitness, rebuild to a slightly lower level, fight, get hurt, lose fitness, rebuild to a slightly lower level..."

    Eventually common sense won out and I limited myself to partner training and light sparring three times a week. I'd still be doing it if it weren't for Covid, but all the broken ribs still ache when the weather changes, and most of my toes don't line up with each other any more, and...
     
  6. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Just wait 'til you tear some rib cartilage. Oh, or a biceps tendon. Or a calf muscle. Shoulder labrum. These are all injuries that will keep you down (and out of the gym) for weeks, and linger for the rest of your life. See what you've got to look forward to?
     
  7. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Been there, done that, and still doing it. Just too stubborn to stop.
     
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  8. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Oh, I'm sure it will happen some day. and when it does, I'll deal with it.

    Seems like most of the things I do in life come with elevated risk of injury.

    But I don't really feel the need to pursue "hardcore" disciplines that, it sounds like, are fare more injury prone.

    Especially in these early stages where I know next to nothing (by comparison) about the "martial arts".

    I see a lot of older guys still competing in BJJ. I don't see a lot of older MMA fighters and such.

    Trying to be smart about learning but also taking care of myself.
     
  9. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    WIsh I'd figured that out twenty years ago. I used to always go balls-to-the-wall in training (didn't know the meaning of "50%"), then got into my 50s and it took me a while to realize getting thrown to the mat fifty times or so during a four-hour session was hastening the expiration date on my physical capabilities.

    Although, seeing Tyson and Jones get back into the ring did spark my competitive streak a bit (good thing my gym is closed).
     
  10. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    My last adventure prior to Covid was force-on-force training. This came about as a result of discussion between a handful of Krav instructors, knife fighting guys, Muay Thai fighters, and a handgun instructor (yours truly).

    The end result was eye-opening and I am deeply grateful for it. One thing that really sticks with me, though, is how handicapped a lot of those folks are. In particular, the ones who have been training for decades have a laundry list of things they no longer can do, and remind you before each roll not to torque their neck, or watch out for that rib, or lay off the left knee.

    Short version, I guess, is that there is such a thing as too much training.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
  11. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    @Corpral_Agarn

    I think it's very sensible to avoid injury as much as possible. I'm living with injuries I'd rather not have. Some of them were unavoidable, and I got them doing activities that were truly important. The trade off for these was worth it. Others I got by being stupid, and doing dangerous things for no terribly good reason. These injuries were not worth what I was doing to get them.

    I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone. We all make our choices and live with the consequences. I just wish the younger me had considered the health of the old man he would become, before he made such poor choices.
     
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  12. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    Regarding the Muay Thai instructor's attitude, for anyone that is offended, why?

    Is it because he's incorrect or because he's quite correct.
     
  13. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Well... For one he wasn't an instructor. He works the counter and takes classes.

    Second, he really didn't understand what or how proficient CCW holders do.

    In the thread I mentioned actually talking with this guy and he really had no idea.

    He's an okay dude, I've rolled with him.
     
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  14. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    His rank doesn't impact whether he's correct.

    As far as CCW holders go, how well can they draw when someone is in their face or attacking them? Not just for a gun but also for a knife, I find it amusing that so many people think their folding knife is a legit self-defense tool, if you can't deploy while being attacked it just provides false confidence.
     
  15. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    You mentioned he was an instructor, I just wanted to make sure you knew that he wasn't. After an in person discussions with the dude, his attitude shifted a good bit (as mentioned earlier, I think) when he learned what defensive CCW training actually entails.

    Basically, he had no idea what he was talking about.


    ?
    Everyone has to figure out how to deal with attacks and how the firearm they are carrying works in all that. CCW instructors have a few ideas about this LOL

    IDK how the folding knife bit is relevant, but the part about false confidence is accurate.
     
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  16. trekker73

    trekker73 Member

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    I ran unarmed combatives courses for NATO gyms as one of my jobs in the middle east. In and outside the military these courses can run a few days to a few weeks. The reality is they arent designed to turn a soldier into 'Bruce lee' anymore than the combat medical course makes you a brain surgeon or the driving course makes you a Rally car champion. Soldiers training is prioritised for needs and they have a lot of other stuff to cover. Weapons, vehicles, comms, ethos, field craft, specialised equipment. main onus on unarmed combat in the modern era is drilling soldiers a few immediate reactions should he find himself without a weapoon so he can at least gain initiative against the foe to regain his primary weapon or access a secondary option.

    Generally the advice we gave people was if you really wanted to handle yourself, get into a full contact fighting style when you get back home.

    Comments about 'sport styles not learning all the nasty stuff' having 'too rigid training or too many rules' are missing the main point. What they do, whether its just punching in boxings case or grappling for wrestling, they do well enough to take the average man out very quickly.

    The second advantage of hard styles is the physical fitness component they push. Real fights may last longer than 20--30 seconds, sometimes you may be struggling for your life for 2 minutes( check prison attack footage). Even a guy with elite fitness in another sport like football or track, gasses in about 60 seconds fighting because his adrenalin is uncontrolled and fighting requires different type of fitness.

    The third thing they do is force you to handle adrenalin. They arent going to hurt you your first night, they want you to keep coming.That said your intestines are going to bunch up the first time the coach gets you to free spar with the club heavyweight, a guy who can kick, punch or suplex you to death(if he wanted). Later when you enter comps, in front of a crowd, you will feel the adrenalin or 'fear of judgement' and 'fear of losing publicly', which is almost as paralyzing( as anyone who has had a boxing bout or MMA fight in front of a crowd knows) as combat. That adrenalin if uncontrolled will also sap your precious fitness like a vampire, as combat does the first few times too.Exposing yourself to that is one of the best conditioners out there.

    I wont say all 'soft styles or traditional dojo arts' are bad, but many of them miss some or all of the advantages above of a real style. Too many swap colored belts for membership fees. No different from fad diets, get rich schemes, money is exchanged in return for promises. They capitalise on the human need to find shortcuts.

    Nothing wrong with learning the nasty attacks they teach: groin strikes, eye strikes, fish hooking, small joint manipulations. But be awary of the clubs full of soft guys giving rudimentary acknowledgement to full contact training, fitness and competition, in return for convincing their students they only need to know' the deadly stuff'. Trust me, yuou are better off with a solid base in a real style, and then adding the nasty stuff afterwards. ..
     
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  17. bratch

    bratch Member

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    Absolutely

    The experience from a live sport with a fully resisting opponent is the true value. Even just a friendly roll at the BJJ gym the other guy doesn’t want you to impose your will. If you’re going 2-3 times a weeks and getting in 2-3 rounds each night you’re easily looking at 5-10 “fights” and 25-50 minutes of opposed forces each week. That really adds up over time in the experience column.

    Last year at a work Christmas party a good buddy and I “wrassled” because our boss and coworkers knew I trained BJJ and they egged it on. Buddy played baseball for Navy and has been through their DT and grappling training and is familiar with BJJ but doesn’t train. Fairly athletic in his prime and exposed to hand to hand. It’s all on video, from the time we first touched hands standing to him tapping from a choke was 23 seconds. Once we were actually on the ground it lasted 16 seconds. He explained that his vision was rapidly going black so another few seconds and he would have been unconscious. Not a real fight, not on the streets but someone who regularly trained against someone their age and size not training and it was over in under 30 seconds
     
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  18. Golf-21-Bravo

    Golf-21-Bravo Member

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    @trekker73

    Excellent post. In addition, regarding dirty tactics; they’ll need a delivery system. Ie, if you can’t punch someone in the face with a boxing glove, you won’t be able to flick someone in the eye. If you can’t grapple to a decent enough level to RNC someone you probably won’t be able to fish hook them etc. Also ‘dirty’ styles don’t have the monopoly on those moves. I’d hate to face a BBJ brown belt with a taste for fishhooks!!
     
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  19. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    My favorite scene from "Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid".

    Butch is about to 'knife fight' a much bigger man for the leadership of the gang.

    He walks up to the bigger man ,and asks him about the "rules of the knife fight".

    The big man stand up tall,and says to Butch " what rules" at which time Butch Kicks him square in 'that' spot ------- and says "exactly".

    My point is if you ever get to squaring off to fight someone = you made more than a few mistakes.

    Unless its in the ring or dojo.

    My thoughts are that the gun is just one form of martial art.

    There is the blade,the stick,the garbage can,the pencil,the belt & buckle,the car bumper,get my drift .

    THE best fight is the one you avoided,or your just an ego freak.
     
  20. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I forgot about this thread for a minute LOL

    So I've been hitting the mats 3 times a week for the last 2.5, almost 3 months. With my reduced firearms training schedule, I should be able to keep this schedule for a while.

    I am still getting subbed often, of course (and many times absolutely wrecked), by the more experienced guys but I am regularly able to "survive" against the other white belts, and occasionally I will sneak in a sub on one of them especially the newer recruit dudes, but sometimes on a one or two stripe.

    I am usually the smallest dude in the room but we have had a few lighter weight guys (and a gal) join up recently. For the pieces that I know pretty well (the basics), it's been fun helping out the new guys.

    My biggest problem for the first two months was getting my neck torqued. I would get a pop and then it felt like I slept on my neck wrong but a lot more painful.
    I think it was due to conditioning as the last few weeks haven't really given me as much trouble... and I'm keeping my head/neck out of trouble a lot better.

    The bruises on my legs/shins are still there (the colors!), but don't hurt nearly as much (half guard lock downs are no joke).


    I have learned a lot and fast. Most of the guys at the gym are happy to you out or show you where you went wrong.

    Last week, I earned my first strip on my white belt. It doesn't mean anything, really, but it's kinda cool.

    There's a Tournament in late February not too far from me and I'm thinking about competing "No Gi". I'd be a "Master" (over 30) Beginner division competing in the 135lb class.

    We'll see, but I am interested.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  21. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    If you find yourself in a "fair fight" on the street, you are doing it wrong.
     
  22. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    First off, keep it up and don't slack. Sometimes when I don't feel like going and force myself to, I find the sessions to be among the most productive. As far as the "damage", you will get used to it. Sounds like you already are. This is a good thing- it serves as a form of inoculation against the physical beating as well as the psych aspect of fighting. There are no "ranks" in MMA like in the Asian martial arts, its more like experience- but congrats on your stripe! I'm not the smallest (currently 173 lbs, 5'6") but I am def. the oldest (53). The "don't judge a book by its cover" lesson is widely shared on a regular basis where I train, amongst everyone. There are several ladies that have began training there in recent months. They are all dedicated and learning fast. One is in her 20's, very thin, and has considerable boxing experience and great form, and is refining her ability to deliver powerful kicks- aided of course by her natural flexibility. When she hits, it hurts. Once she develops her ground fighting abilities, she wants to start competing. 2 of our fighters are going to be in amateur matches in the next couple of months, and 1 of those guys is on the road to going pro. My coach keeps asking me to compete, but finding an amateur MMA fighter at my level of experience (low, at 2 years) in my age group and weight class would be a challenge- not to mention the difficulty in getting Mrs. Fl-NC signing off on it. If my game was "jit", I would go for it. The chances of getting a significant injury are less, since you would be going up against a similarly skilled opponent, and there is no striking.
     
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  23. NuShootr

    NuShootr member

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    Funny you should say that. I watch a fair amount of firearm relates YouTube stuff and there is one guy who is an excellent firearms instructor. He also has hand to hand fighting guests on his channel showing people "self defense" type training stuff. And it's awful. And if you comment that it's not quite the reality of street fighting, the chip on his shoulder gets bigger.
    Street fighting is about ending it as quickly as humanly possible. And if it's not automatic to you, you will likely get hurt. You may come out alive, but you'll get hurt. You just can't learn this stuff watching some YouTube spot. It doesn't work that way.
     
  24. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    I agree with you 100%. But some youtube fight channels do offer valuable information. Fight Tips and Hard to Hurt are excellent sources of general information and techniques, but are worthless if they are not applied in practice with knowledgeable partners and coaches to fine tune and critique your performance- just like shooting channels. Another channel worth watching (though the sun doesn't rise or set there) is Streetbeefs. Yes, it is fighting (of various styles) in a ring, and yes, many of the contestants are "shady" to say the least, but there is valuable information and lessons to be learned by observing these amateur backyard fights.
     
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  25. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    Strictly speaking, CQB has a very real need for understanding weapon retention, so yes, he is correct, but.. he's also selling his services for what I believe are a low percentage of actual encounters.

    I think CQB training is helpful but not if disproportionate to other training.
     
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