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WMD Mega-Thread

Discussion in 'Legal' started by SkunkApe, May 8, 2003.

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  1. SkunkApe

    SkunkApe Member

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    The Missing WMD

    The Missing WMD





    By Gwynne Dyer

    THE FAVOURITE fantasy headline of British comedian Spike Milligan was: 'Archduke Franz Ferdinand Found Alive! First World War a Mistake!' We are unlikely to see a similar headline in any American paper soon, but in the rest of the world the continued failure of theUS and British occupation forces in Iraq to find any of the 'weapons of mass destruction' that were the alleged reason for their invasion is both a diplomatic disaster and a joke in very bad taste.

    Tony Blair ran into both phenomena and came away severely shaken when he visited Moscow last Tuesday. The British prime minister thought he had a good personal relationship with the Russian president, but Vladimir Putin is a former intelligence officer, and like his American and British counterparts he was outraged at the way the US and British governments misrepresented the intelligence they got from their own agencies in order to justify their war. Unlike the people at the Central Intelligence Agency and MI5, however, Putin was free to speak -- and did he ever.

    Putin openly mocked Blair for the failure of the 'coalition' to find any of the fabled WMD even weeks after the end of the war: "Where are those arsenals of weapons of mass destruction, if indeed they ever existed? Perhaps Saddam is still hiding in an undergroundbunker somewhere, sitting on cases of weapons of mass destruction, and is preparing to blow the whole thing up and destroy the lives of thousands of Iraqis." The Russian journalists at the press conference roared with laughter -- maybe it loses something in translation -- but Blair looked distinctly grim. He is going to have lots more practice at that.

    Two months ago, Blair talked a reluctant parliament into supporting the attack on Iraq bywarning of Iraqi WMD ready to strike on 45 minutes' notice, and President George W. Bush warned of "mushroom clouds" if the US didn't invade Iraq. It was all so desperately urgent, so hair-trigger dangerous, that Washington and London couldn't wait for the United Nations arms inspectors to finish their job; they had to bypass the UN and invade right away. So many thousands of Iraqis (2,500 civilians and perhaps 10,000 soldiers) were killed, 137 US and British soldiers died, looters destroyed most of Iraq's cultural heritage while 'coalition'troops stood idly by -- and nobody has found any WMD.

    The rest of the world never really believed the White House's justification for war anyway. As UN chief weapons inspector Hans Blix said in late April, Washington and London built their case for going to war on "very, very shaky" evidence, including documents that subsequently turned out to have been faked -- and with the war now over, Washington isn't even bothering to insist that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the United States any more. "We were not lying," a Bush administration official told ABC News on April 28. "But it was just a matter of emphasis."

    The real reason for the war, according to the ABC report, was that the administration "wanted to make a statement" (presumably about what happens to countries that defy US power). Iraq was not invaded because it threatened America, but because "Saddam had all the requirements to make him, from (the administration's) standpoint, the perfect target.". The assumption, at the White House and the Pentagon, was that everybody else could be bulliedinto forgetting the lies about WMD and accepting the fact of American control of Iraq.

    They probably could be if the occupation turned out to be a brilliant success that produced a happy, prosperous, united and independent Iraq, but that does not seem likely. Instead, it is going sour very fast, with US troops shooting civilian demonstrators, the Shia majority seeking an Islamic state, and the beginnings of a guerrilla resistance to the foreign occupiers. Even if the US were willing to let the United Nations have a role in occupied Iraq, the desire of other powers to get involved in any way in this proto-Vietnam is waning from day to day. Washington continues to insist that the UN weapons inspectors will not be allowed back in, which means that the rest of the world is unlikely to believe the US and British forces even if they do claim to have found something. And frankly, hardly anyone in Britain believes in Iraqi WMD any more either -- not even former cabinet ministers.

    On 22 April 22, former foreign secretary Robin Cook said he doubted that there was a single person in the intelligence services who believed that a weapon of mass destruction in working order would be found in Iraq, and accused the White House of trying to bridge the credibility gap by "re-inventing the term 'weapon of mass destruction' to cover any artillery shell with a chemical content, or any biological toxin, even if it had not been fitted to a weapon.". Even on that preposterous definition, they have not found any WMD in Iraq yet --and as former British defence secretary Doug Henderson said on 18 April 18: "If by the turn ofthe year there is no WMD then the basis on which this (war) was executed was illegal."

    The post-9/11 patriotic chill still prevents any senior American politician from questioning the existence of Iraqi WMD in public, but this issue is not going to go away. As the situation in Iraq deteriorates and the American body count rises, questions about how America got talked into this mess will keep coming back, and sooner or later they will have to be answered.

    Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45countries

    http://www.cyprus-mail.com/May/4/opinion3.htm
     
  2. blades67

    blades67 Member

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    We took out a terrorist and his regime. If the rest of the world doesn't like that fact I invite them to demand that their governments return all International Aid received from the United States and make due for themselves. :scrutiny:
     
  3. Soap

    Soap Member

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    I see it like Blades. We took down a man who tortures and murders his people. Not to mention thievery... I can't understand why people are so opposed to taking out the trash like that.
     
  4. Meow

    Meow Member

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  5. SkunkApe

    SkunkApe Member

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    Daniel Flory,

    Its not that I'm necessarily opposed to "taking out the trash". Its that I'm opposed to my own government lying to me.

    The United States government lied about:

    1) The Iraqis taking Kuwaiti babies off of respirators during the first Gulf War.

    2) The one million Iraqi troops on the border poised to invade Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War.

    3) April Glaspie's conversation with Hussein prior to the first Gulf War.

    4) Hussein's collabaration with the perpatrators of the 9/11 attacks.

    5) Husseins "weapons of mass destruction".

    If the United States lied about all of those things, why should I believe anything I'm told by them? How can I be sure that Hussein is as evil as they say?

    Reminds me of boxing promoter Bob Arums reply when caught in an obvious contradiction: "

    Yesterday, I was lying. Today, I'm telling the truth."

    I'm old enough to remember when I trusted my government.
     
  6. cordex

    cordex Member

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    That particular lie was told by a Kuwaiti. Perhaps it was repeated by the gov't, but it didn't originate with them.
    I'm sorry, what lie were you told about this?
    As yet unproven. Can you offer concrete evidence disproving it? After all, you are claiming the gov't is lying ...
    See above.
    Hasn't been proven either way. We know he used to have 'em. We know he's used 'em.
     
  7. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

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    I think just today, the pentagon CONFIRMED a mobile weapons lab. The one they found a few days ago. It's pretty clear chemicals were dumped into the Euphretis(sp) river. It's pretty clear they continued to try to develop this stuff no matter what any inspectors said. It's pretty clear they are terrorists and harbor terrorist because we have found a few there. And now....what's this??? A direct link to good ole Usama and the Brits say they have the documentation.

    It's pretty clear Russia, Germany and France are in deep with ole Saddam. They were in direct violation of restrictions on the oil for food program. These countries have NO credibility what-so-ever. If they don't like it, then maybe they should do something about it. Bring it bitches!!!!!

    Bottom line, we picked out an @sshole and made an example out of him.
     
  8. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    About ten days into the rout of Hussein's troops, an Army captain reported finding evidence of highly radioactive material.

    He had investigated a basement complex of a building previously searched by UN inspectors. The inspectors admitted ignorance of the underground complex. It was dug below water table, and therefore unsuspected. There were pumps to keep water out of this basement.

    The captain found several rooms where any exposure of his radiation meter "ran it off the scale," he said.

    I note the absence of a murderer's pistol in his rooms doesn't mean it was never there. Nothing prevented Hussein's people from removing various Bad Things before our attack. He had some four years both to build Bad Things, and hide Bad Things.

    And it's factual that no evidence exists as to the destruction of some twenty-five tons of poison (nerve?) gases known to exist as of the end of Desert Storm. No paper, no video, no nada.

    During the third week of the war, a reporter showed video of what was alleged to be a mobile "bug lab". That truck's interior did indeed look like some sort of medical laboratory, as opposed to an ambulance or other equivalent medical facility.

    So far, I have no particular feeling of having been lied to. I'll wait a few months, until we get something more than biased, anti-Bush, anti-Administration political self-serving mouth-music.

    Art
     
  9. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Actually, I believe it was the daughter of our ambassador to Kuwait, dressed in traditional arab garb...

    Sadly, I am too. :(
     
  10. 45cal Suppository

    45cal Suppository Member

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    So, what have we accomplished in Iraq?

    1)Saddam's out of power but still alive plus he looted the country of ONE BILLION DOLLARS in cash and gold the day before we started bombing. Nice coincedence, huh?

    2)We've killed innocent citizens and conscripted soldiers (along with the suicide bombers and Hussiens private army soldiers).

    3)We've reduced the government infrastructure (and a lot of regular citezens houses and businesses) to rubble. Power and water service is still disrupted in places.

    What's next?

    1)Food and medical aid to Iraq AT OUR EXPENSE while many people here at home in America could use this aid.

    2)Rebuild the country (at America's expense) using companies that made inside deals with our government before the war even started.

    3)Wait for Saddam (along with Bib Laden, remember him Mr Bush, you were going to hunt him down to the end of the earth to "bring him to justice"? Seems like we convienently forgot about him during the last 9 months of beating the war drum over Iraq) to pop up somewhere else and start funding more terrorist groups with his ONE BILLION DOLLARS in cash.


    Why, oh why couldn't we just have sent in a hit squad and offed Saddam sometime during the last 12 years? Were we worried that it wasn't "right" and that the rest of the world would hate us? Well, that's what's happened anyway and Saddam's still alive and MIA along with ONE BILLION dollars in cash.
     
  11. Spark

    Spark Member

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    *sniff* *sniiiiiiffff* *sniiiiiiiffffff sniff snifff*

    I smell trolls
     
  12. Soap

    Soap Member

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    SkunkApe- I agree completely. If indeed the .gov was knowingly lying, I would be highly irate. Not surprised...but irate. If the information was simply bad, the government didn't really lie. Also, I agree with what cordex said, a genuine lie has neither been proven or disproven yet. Time will tell.
     
  13. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

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    45 Cal Suppository: with a username like that, you may have some "splainin'" to do.

    And with just two posts here on THR, your comments may be taken with more than just a grain of salt. Heaping teaspoons may be required.

    I disagree with our president on a host of ideas; however, I think he acted on the best intel available, and that in time we will find the WMD materials, even if we have to go digging in Syria
     
  14. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    (Emphasis mine)

    Nobody should pay attention to a single syllable this moron utters. Run away before he steals your oxygen!

    That statement right there discredits that entire article.

    To whomever agrees with the article:

    -Why did the UN pass 14 resolutions pertaining to Iraq?

    -What EXACTLY was the purpose of those 14 resolutions?


    There's your answer as to the existance of the WMD.

    And guys, give me a friggin' break: we've been there barely a month and a half. :rolleyes:

    Talk about your instant gratification culture. :rolleyes:

    Oh, and I guess the underground nuclear facility we've uncovered doesn't count for anything, right? Courtesy of the french, of course...

    Nor the 3,000 chemical protection suits?
     
  15. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    I don't know WHAT you are talking about, you psycho war-mongerer. [/sarcasm]
     

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  16. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    Because the US has propped up and supported other less than savory governments and characters in the past.

    Not to mention all the other atrocities being committed right now that we aren't intervening in.

    You see, the US can either fight all the evil in the world, or fight none.

    [/liberal mode]
     
  17. Soap

    Soap Member

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    Okay Leftist, then we can do away with the police. After all, they should only fight all of the evil or none of it. We'll start with your neighborhood.

    Also, less than savory is a product of 20/20 hindsight.
     
  18. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    Uh, you didn't see the [/liberal mode] in my post, did ya? :D
     
  19. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    Wasn't there some video footage documenting that?
     
  20. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Absence of evidence

    is not evidence of absence.

    As I say again and again, it's where you start from. If you believe from the start that Bush=Bad, then the glass is always half-empty.
     
  21. Soap

    Soap Member

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    No I saw it, that's why I addressed you as Leftist instead of Doc Jones. ;)
     
  22. D.W. Drang

    D.W. Drang Member

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    The byline was al I needed to see.

    After
    they should have added "Who, after being run out of the UK and Canadian Armies, has made a career of bashing them and the US military."
    I am told he was an ossifer, and heard a rumor he spent some time in the US Army as well, but doubt it, although I doubt it. (Although citizenship was not a requirement even for officers until the latye 80s. One of the infantry units in the 7th ID (L) had a captain who still held his Rhodeisan citizenship--quite an asset in a light infantry unit, what with his service in Grey's Scouts...)
     
  23. Topgun

    Topgun member

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    Do NOT pick on the US government.

    They also took out the heinous criminals at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    RAH RAH RAH.

    They can do no wrong.
     
  24. cordex

    cordex Member

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    Look again. I'm pretty sure it was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US.
    I've got no problem criticising the US gov't. I have a problem with doing it mindlessly.
     
  25. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Did a google search, and this was the first hit:

    You're right. But it still looks as if she wasn't working alone on it...
     
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