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Wolf SRM issue

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by kestak, Nov 27, 2010.

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  1. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I reloaded 3000 .223. I used 55 grains bullets, WC844 powder and Wolf SRM primers. I am not a beginner reloader (but I can still learn a lot from you guys...hehehehehehe)

    I noticed there is at least 1/150 that does not go bang when stroke. The dimple in the primer is VERY positive and when I pull out the bullet, I noticed some powder is yellow and there is small piece of cake.

    I have another batch with CCI and another one with Wolf 223 primers with the same batch of powder. They do not have that issue.

    Anyone else have problems with those primers?
    Or anyone has an idea what could be wrong?

    Thank you
     
  2. ole farmerbuck

    ole farmerbuck Member

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    YEP!! Same thing here. I have a pic on here somewhere about this. I contacted Wolf and got my money back.
     
  3. ole farmerbuck

    ole farmerbuck Member

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  4. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Did you have to send the primers and pay the hazmat?
     
  5. Wildbillz

    Wildbillz Member

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    What was the lot # on your primers? The Yellow cake came from the primer, I am guessing? Dang it I am sitting on about 5K of these.

    WB
     
  6. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Lot number is 9-09
     
  7. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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  8. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Darn! I just realized i get some duds also with LRM in my 30-06....
     
  9. bds

    bds Member

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    This continuing saga of "Wolf primer issue" has been a growing interest for me as starting next month, I will be setting up to reload .223 and .308 rifle cartridges (Santa in pink is getting me a Rock Chucker Supreme for Christmas to reload rifle cartridges). :D

    I think as this discussion at The Rifleman's Journal reveals, there may be more than just "bad Wolf primer" than meets the eye. I think variables such as primer cup hardness, primer seat depth, difference in primer pocket depths (factory or altered by reloaders), firing pin strike depth, etc. all contribute to otherwise good primer failing to ignite (BTW, the author of The Rifleman's Journal frequently points to the inconsistent firing pin strike/depth as the cause of his primer misfires, not just with Wolf but with many other brands of primers).

     
  10. kestak

    kestak Member

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    BDS, the primers that did not detonate had a very positive firing pin strike on them.
     
  11. bds

    bds Member

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    kestak, I believe you - having read your past posts, you post as you see it without hype or BS. And that's why this issue is growing in interest for me as why 1 in 150 failed to ignite.

    Let's investigate. If we take the assumption that 1 in 150 primers must have been bad, then we'll never go beyond that assumption to get to the true cause of that one misfire. It's been my experience that some reloading "myths" are based on unverified facts but repeated by many who never got to the true cause of the problem.

    One example is the case of light striker pin indent problem with Glock pistols. Most shooters "assume" that the striker pin is worn/bad and move to replace the striker assembly because "Glocks never need cleaning." My experience has been that fouling builds up and compacts into a thin layer on the opposite side of the breech wall keeping the striker pin from making full indent on the primer cup. Once the fouling is softened and scraped off, the striker pin returns to make full indents and no more misfires or light striker indent problems.

    Since the other 149 primers did ignite, could there be another reason for why that one primer failed to ignite? What factors contribute for the firing pin to indent the primer cup with sufficient force and depth?

    - Were the cases mixed headstamp or once fired of same headstamp?
    - If they were reloaded cases of mixed headstamp, are we certain of primer pocket depths that may have contributed deeper than usual pocket?
    - Could the first firing pin strike caused the sufficient depth of striker, but if the primer cup got pushed deeper, not have the setting of the anvil on the priming compound to ignite the compound?

    The Rifleman's Journal mentioned that Wolf SRM cup is harder and the newest lot cups may be not as tall. If the firearm's firing/striker pin indent is inconsistent or not hard/deep enough, we may have another issue to ponder and this could be the blame for the Wolf primer misfires. Before Wolf primers were sold in the US, I heard many shooters doing the similar Winchester vs CCI vs Remington vs Federal primer cup hardness and hotness of primer fire comparison with many swearing that they'll never use brand X primers ever again. :eek:

    When I get ready to reload my rifle rounds in .223 and .308, I will start with my trusty Winchester primers and go from there. If I have the same experience with Wolf/Tula rifle primers, I will join the crowd in badmouthing them. So far, I have yet to experience a single Wolf/Tula pistol primer failure but I know of many who did. After they copied my primer seating process, they stopped having primer failures.
     
  12. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    -It is 223 caliber.
    -Those are all LC brass.
    -This is not once fired brass. I stopped to care for plinking ammo to segregate my cases by number of firing. I just use a paper clip and I check if there is a ring inside the case. If so, I discard. But I can sya those cases have not been fired more than 4-5 times max.
    -I thoroughly clean my AR bolt carrier. So the firing pin channel is clean and the firing pin has full power from the AR.
    -It did not happen in only one rifle. It happened in 2 different RRA CAR-15.
    -How do I know the quantity and the failure rate? Simple. My wife is practicing the Appleseed AQT. It is 50 rounds and she does 4-5 of those per session. The first failure yesterday happened at the first stage of the first AQT. The last one happened at the 4th stage of her second AQT.
    -I really wised up yesterday. This stuff has happened since a couple of months (since I got on that batch). Each time I noticed the firing pin indent was very deep but the primer did not go. I always dismantle "the failed rounds" to get the components back.

    Moreover, I noticed it happened quite a few times with my 30-06 sniper. I put the fault because I was using the crappy FC brass and it was because the primer pocket got loose without me noticing. Now I am sure it was not me. My FC brass is never shot more than 3 times since I noticed the gas leak around the primer and it etched my bolt face.

    Yesterday, I zeroed my new M1A and I loaded .308 with Wolf large magnum rifle with I4895 under a Sierra #2200. I got one misfire too!!! :banghead:

    I did not have the time to dismantle that round. I am ready to bet there is mellow yellow in it...hehehehe

    Thank you
     
  13. helg

    helg Member

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    A guy comes to a match without test-shooting his reloads first? He moves down case shoulder too far, while knowing that his chamber needs higher than standard shoulders? If the shoulder is moved down too far, any primer may fail to ignite. He says that one lot has lower in height primers than the other one, and does not give any numbers from his measurements.

    This sounds like badmouthing.
     
  14. ole farmerbuck

    ole farmerbuck Member

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    My primers were 9-09 also. I tried them in 3 different .223's. I had at least 5 out of 20 or so shots so i quit trying and called Powder Valley. They gave me the name of the man i needed to talk to at Wolf. Long story short, luckily i knew someone who worked for PV who was coming back here every other weekend so i sent them back with them. I couldnt send them back since they were opened (if i remember right). I have been using cci 41, winchester and cci BR wwith no problems. And yes, i was seating them good. When i explained to the guy from Wolf what was going on and sent him a pic of the yellow powder, he admitted i had bad primers.
     
  15. bds

    bds Member

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    W.E.G., thanks for the links.

    What I noticed from reading them is that some people didn't have any problem with Wolf primers and some did (and some of them never used again). Also, as posts got newer (like mid to late 2010) there seem to be more positive posts than negative. I do recall a particular lot having extra hard primer cup, but any manufacturer will experience production issues based on variations in material quality from their suppliers. I do recall someone posting that Wolf has addressed that supplier issue.

    My rationale is that if a product was consistently bad, then there should be a wide-spread occurrence of problems. Not some good and some bad. Since some reloaders never experienced primer misfires, it is plausible to think there may have been more than one variable that's to blame.

    My question would be, "Are newer production lots of Wolf primers STILL bad?"

    I will order some Winchester/Wolf/Tula SR/LR primers but will verify the lot number with Powder Valley before I order. I will report back my experience with current production lot of Wolf/Tula rifle primers compared to Winchester as reference mark.
     
  16. Hondo 60
    • Contributing Member

    Hondo 60 Member

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    What I'm hearing here is that it's hit & miss.

    What we haven't heard is any of these issues with CCI, Win, Fed Rem etc.
    I know some guys will swear by Wolf/Tula but if I can help it they'll never see my guns.
    Even if it means I have to pay a few dollars more.

    I need my guns to go bang when I pull the trigger.
     
  17. ole farmerbuck

    ole farmerbuck Member

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    If i remember right, my primers were the Magnum also. I have had no trouble with their regulars.

    I take that back.....they were the .223 primers.
     
  18. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Oh God!!!!!!!

    Yesterday night, I remembered that I loaded 500 self-defense ammo with those Wolf primers: Hornady once fired cases, pocket primer uniformed, Vmax bullets and Ramshot TAC powder... I went to shoot 200 of them and guess what???? 2 misfired!

    Guess what? Today I'll sing:

    If I had a hammer
    I'd hammer in the morning
    I'd hammer in the evening
    All over this land
    I'd hammer out danger
    I'd hammer out a warning
    I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
    All over this land
     
  19. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Any one have manufacture dates or lot numbers on known, not suspected, bad Wolf primers?
     
  20. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    I loaded mine up and chucked the boxes already but mine were all OK. Already shot all my 223 and 9MM that I had used them in. Kestak looks like you might be ahead if the ammo becomes practice ammo and a lesson is learned. Only 2800 to go.:banghead:
     
  21. ole farmerbuck

    ole farmerbuck Member

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    9-09
     
  22. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Walkalong,

    My lot is 9-09 and i am sure they are one of the defect batch.
     
  23. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Kestak,

    You mention duds with SRM primers in your OP, but you later mention duds with 30-06 ammo.

    Can't be using the same lot of primers for .223 and 30-06.

    Explain?
     
  24. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Large rifle magnum lot number is 5-09
     
  25. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Kestak,

    What method are you using to ascertain the "headspace" dimension of your handloads?

    Do you use one of these types of case gages?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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