Worst safety EVER!!!

[vintovka]

I found the "add on" safety on russian and chinese tokarevs can be downright dangerous. Have seen one fire when released and heard of many more. These safeties were added to both military issue arms and new made to meet import requirements. In one case it appears that the pistols were not dissasembled when drilled resulting in all sorts of chips in the mechanism. The only cure for these is to permanently remove the safety and carefully clean out the chips. Why many are seen with the gaping hole and ugly milling or plugged tigged and refinished. The value of many former $99 t-33's has been boosted in this manner and close inspection is advised before buying. In some others the sloppy spring loaded balls have been lost or would not stay in the milled detents causing FTF and AD's. I returned a customers norinco tok with the aftermarket safety to a wholesaler due to these safety issues. They tossd it on an entire pallet of same make a model that were reportedly being set back to china (or sold to ethiopia). May have been other pallets but it was "requested" that the obsevation NOT be spoken of.

 

[Freudianfloyd]

The safety on the old Savage autos is pretty much unusable- the M51 Remington isn't much better.
Lugers are pretty terrible too.

You beat me to it. I was going to say the safety on my 1907 is so flat, it is hard to engage or disengage and in a terrible spot for manipulating while holding the gun.

 

[Monac]

A what? What is a "firing pin safety?"

There are several things to say about firing pins and safety. First, most automatic pistols are designed with an "inertia" firing pin. That means that the firing pin is shorter than the distance between the face of the hammer (when it is down) and the primer of the cartridge in the firing chamber. The firing pin is hit with enough force so that when it flies forward it has enough momentum to set off the primer. (I guess somebody decided to call that inertia instead.) This kind of firing pin does not protrude from the face of the bolt when the hammer is down. In theory, dropping the gun on its muzzle, or striking the hammer against an object, will not impart enough force to the firing pin to fire a cartridge.

The Tokarev was designed with a "full reach" firing pin. That means it is a bit longer than than the distance from the lowered hammer face and the primer. This kind of firing pin protrudes from the bolt face when the hammer is down. In that case, any blow on the hammer (when it is down) is transmitted directly to the primer. The Colt Single Action Army was like that when the hammer was down, and was famously supposed to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer. I guess the Russians did this to ensure more reliable ignition.

Second, I said in theory an inertia firing pin will not set off a cartridge if the gun is dropped or struck. But that is only good for a certain maximum height or a force. Exceed that will fire the gun. The trend has been to give pistols internal safety devices that positively lock the firing pin in place except when the trigger is pulled.

Colt actually did this put such a device in civilian-market 1911s as early as 1937. It was called the Swartz safety, but they discontinued it in 1941, when they began making pistols for the Army again. This kind of device became more and more common as time went on, and is now the norm on combat pistols. This is what people mean now when they talk about a firing pin safety. I think the German had a similar device for police Lugers in the 1920's or 30's as well

It may not be possible to fit a Tokarev with such a device, because of the "packaged" nature of the firing system, but that is guesswork on my part. I think it would also need to be given an inertia firing pin for that, but that should be easy. Perhaps just shortening the existing full reach pin would work, although it would have to have sufficient mass to crush the primer.

PS - The Savage 32/380 automatics also have a full reach firing pin. They cannot be given an inertial one, because the "hammer" on the Savage is not a hammer. It is a cocking lever, connected directly to the firing pin/striker. The only safe way to carry a Savage with a round in the chamber is cocked with the safety (awkward as it) applied.

 

[5-SHOTS]

If a pistol does not have the half cock notch for the hammer, is a big NO NO in my book to decock the hammer manually.
One of the reasons to have the half cock notch is that in order to decock the hammer manually, you can pull the trigger and immediately release it as soon as you feel the hammer being released from the sear; this way you can safely low down the hammer into the half cock position. If the hammer slips, the half cock notch will intercept it and the hammer will not hit the firing pin. Instead, being forced to hold the trigger pulled while you low down the hammer, if the hammer slips from the thumb there is a good chance that the pistol goes bang. If the Tokarev has a firing pin longer than the firing pin channel I would not even think of carrying that pistol with one in the chamber and the hammer down even putting aside the considerations on the lack of firing pin safety and half cock notch.

 

[tark]

I would not even think of carrying that pistol with one in the chamber and the hammer down even putting aside the considerations on the lack of firing pin safety and half cock notch.

Agreed. But I never said that was a good idea. Carrying the gun with a round chambered and the hammer on half cock is the way to go. Re-read post # 68 to learn why.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Agreed. But I never said that was a good idea. Carrying the gun with a round chambered and the hammer on half cock is the way to go. Re-read post # 68 to learn why.

The Tokarev in any case still lacks the firing pin safety so it must be considered not drop safe. It's a pistol I would consider carrying only in Condition 3 and only if I have no other better options to carry. As I already said, the operation of manually decok the hammer in a pistol is a possible cause of accidents. It must also be considered that to shoot the Tokarev you then will have to manually cock the hammer, perhaps one hand and in a stressful situation and it could be not that easy. A pistol like a Beretta G version, a H&K P2000/P30 V3, a SIG-Sauer P series, a Ruger P95DC a CZ 75D (if you want the hammer decocked in the half cock position) are alot safer designs and you can always cock the hammer manually in those pistols if you want (which is not recommended anyway because it is not necessary).

 

[tark]

The Tokarev in any case still lacks the firing pin safety so it must be considered not drop safe. It's a pistol I would consider carrying only in Condition 3 and only if I have no other better options to carry. As I already said, the operation of manually decok the hammer in a pistol is a possible cause of accidents. It must also be considered that to shoot the Tokarev you then will have to manually cock the hammer, perhaps one hand and in a stressful situation and it could be not that easy. A pistol like a Beretta G version, a H&K P2000/P30 V3, a SIG-Sauer P series, a Ruger P95DC a CZ 75D (if you want the hammer decocked in the half cock position) are alot safer designs and you can always cock the hammer manually in those pistols if you want (which is not recommended anyway because it is not necessary).

Have you ever owned or fired a Tokarev? If you have you know that most of what you have said doesn't really apply. Too many people are of the mindset that an automatic pistol MUST have a safety or it is worthless.

There is much complaining here that the Tokarev lacks a free floating, inertial firing pin like a 1911. I have owned three Toks in my life. My current one is a Yugo Model-57. I consider it to be the best of the breed, in part because it has an extended grip and a nine round magazine. Mine has the 1911 type add on safety, which works OK, but it only blocks the trigger. I never use it. It still has the military Tok half cock safety.

One day, I wanted to test the "drop safe" idea. I chambered a primed but empty case. I wanted to see it I could bang the muzzle on a hard surface and set it off.

The hammer was set at "half cock."

I could not. I whacked that thing onto a treated lumber 2X4 so hard is probably stimulated a drop from 20' high. No dice. I barely got a dimple on the primer.

In summation, I'm not the least bit worried about the firing pin on a tokarev discharging a round in the chamber because the pistol was dropped. dropped from waist level. Or even higher.

A further point to consider. Even if the gun would fire when dropped...this would only happen if the gun fell so that the muzzle was pointing downward, straight towards the ground. This would not result in anyone accidentally being shot.

The firing pin on a Tokarev is not a safety issue.

It is a non issue...

 

[vintovka]

I like the half cock safety on my toks. It works and anyone can be taught how it works without training. IMHO The reliance on safeties may be the cause of so many accidents as actually invites carelessness as so many depend on them or expect them to be flawless/automatic. I am sure the stupid import mandated ones are really the oxymoron of all safeties. A trully safe (or as safe as you can get) is a quality hammerless DAO that can never be left cocked.

 

[tark]

I like the half cock safety on my toks. It works and anyone can be taught how it works without training. IMHO The reliance on safeties may be the cause of so many accidents as actually invites carelessness as so many depend on them or expect them to be flawless/automatic. I am sure the stupid import mandated ones are really the oxymoron of all safeties. A trully safe (or as safe as you can get) is a quality hammerless DAO that can never be left cocked.

Always remember the Golden Rule: The best safety on any gun is between your ears.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Other two bad designs.
Vektor CP1 front trigger guard safety.
Engaged:


Disengaged (you have to put your trigger finger inside the trigger guard to disengage the safety):



Truvelo ADP (also known as Tanfoglio P-25, Wilson Combat ADP and probably other names). The safety is ambi.



It is so bad that can be placed in a "in between" position.

 

[tark]

Disengaged (you have to put your trigger finger inside the trigger guard to disengage the safety):

Soooo... please explain, exactly, why this is bad?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Truvelo ADP (also known as Tanfoglio P-25, Wilson Combat ADP and probably other names). The safety is ambi.

I got mine when it was being sold by Heritage Arms and called the Stealth...that was before they added the finger grooves

It is a really interesting South African design...being a delayed blow-back like the H&K P7...and the thumb safety on mine works fine.

Vektor CP1 front trigger guard safety.

Another interesting South African design. It isn't often than a manufacturer takes their prototype to a college design class for them to make suggestions on the ergonomics of the gun.

At one time this was my "grail gun" until they were basically unobtanium when they were all recalled by the factory

 

[5-SHOTS]

Soooo... please explain, exactly, why this is bad?

Following Rule #3 of the Primary Rules of Gun Safety, I not only keep my trigger finger off the trigger but off the trigger guard and I hope others do too. So putting your trigger finger inside the trigger guard to disengage a safety violates Rule #3 in my book and I hope in others’ books as well.
Now, even assuming that the Vektor CP1 safety (as well as the first Steyr M9 safety) was designed to be disengaged only when firing at a target in one motion, there is nothing stopping someone from disengaging it at a time prior to firing at a target and that, again, violates Rule #3 in my book. In any case, I would love to see the owner of the Vektor CP1 or the Steyr M9 disengage the trigger guard safety in a stressful situation or in a life/death situation.

In addition to the Primary Rules there is another valuable warning that I always keep in my mind when handling a gun and that descends from the Primary Rules. It is a warning that I once read in an Italian gun magazine and that goes like this: every unnecessary pull of the trigger is a potential cause of accidents. Unfortunately, the violation of this warning has been the final cause of most of the accidents that have occurred in my area and that I have come to know of. Sure, there has been a violation of one or more of the Primary Rules but these accidents could have been still avoided if at the end of the sequence of errors there had not been the final "unnecessary pull of the trigger".

That's all and nothing is going to convince me I'm wrong about the things I wrote above so I won't respond further on the topic.

 

[JohnKSa]

Never saw a "hammer" put on half cock any other way.

As I recall, there were some variants of the H&K USP where the decocker dropped the hammer to half-cock. The CZ 75BD also operates like this.

 

[Jim Watson]

You find that in IDPA rules. If your SSP has a mechanical decocker, you start from where it leaves the hammer. If you manually lower the hammer, it has to be all the way down. The difference between a CZ 75 BD and 75 B.

Vektor CP1 front trigger guard safety.

If the Vektor is bad, what about an M1 or M14?

The emphasis here has been on awkward pistol safeties, but I want to include the H&K sporting rifle layout:

 

[tark]

Following Rule #3 of the Primary Rules of Gun Safety, I not only keep my trigger finger off the trigger but off the trigger guard and I hope others do too. So putting your trigger finger inside the trigger guard to disengage a safety violates Rule #3 in my book and I hope in others’ books as well.

Darn!! You are right, of course. I now realize that all Garands suck...

 

[9mmepiphany]

Following Rule #3 of the Primary Rules of Gun Safety, I not only keep my trigger finger off the trigger but off the trigger guard and I hope others do too. So putting your trigger finger inside the trigger guard to disengage a safety violates Rule #3 in my book and I hope in others’ books as well.

I've seen folks who do keep their finger off the trigger guard, but it has been almost exclusively in competitive Action Pistol competition and is solely for the benefit of the Safety Officer to be able to obviously see that your finger isn't on the trigger...to avoid being called for a penalty.

In Jeff Cooper's original API (Gunsite) Rules for Gun Safety (1978-1979) trigger finger placement isn't addressed at all. The Rules covered 1) the gun being always Loaded, 2) Muzzle awareness, and 3) Positive identification of your target. Attention to the trigger finger does appear later in his down at #6...in reference to being in motion

Most Defensive Shooting schools train to either have the trigger finger on the forward portion of the trigger guard or curled on the frame just above the trigger (to easily drop onto the trigger). Most LE academies, that I've interacted with, teach placement of the trigger finger on the forward portion of the trigger guard

The extrapolation of Rule 3 that you use is almost as odd as folks who won't carry a gun in a horizontal shoulder holster because it sweeps the person behind them...which they see as a violation of Rule II (Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy)

 

[tark]

That's all and nothing is going to convince me I'm wrong about the things I wrote above so I won't respond further on the topic.

Scared that you might learn that you could be wrong?

You go ahead and not respond, but I'll betting you will read this anyway.

First; if the gun is on safe and you put your finger in the trigger guard...it is probably because you intend to fire the gun. Now your finger is in the trigger guard so, tell me what bad thing can happen? Let's say you pull the trigger by accident... Nothing will happen...because the gun is on SAFE!I If you push forward and take the safety off, your finger is moving away from the trigger. At this point, if the gun goes off accidentally then it is because you are an idiot.

Over six million M-1 Garands and a couple of million M-14s were manufactures with a safety that you say is dangerous. Can't ever remember any reports that the guns were prone to accidental discharges because of that inside the trigger guard safety.

Have a nice day. You live in a beautiful country.

 

[tark]

The emphasis here has been on awkward pistol safeties, but I want to include the H&K sporting rifle layout:

The inside the trigger guard Garand type safety is an excellent design and one of the best types of safety ever invented.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Another brillant design, in this case aftermarket. Not quite as bad as the Vektor CP1 trigger guard safety or the original Steyr M9 trigger guard safety but still very questionable. I still like to see this one and the two mentioned above manipulated when it counts.
The only good thing is that they are secondary (in 2 of 3 cases optional) and unnecessary safeties and therefore can be ignored and I hope for the users that they are infact ignored.

 

[tark]

I won't respond further on the topic.

uhhhh...

Another brillant design, in this case aftermarket. Not quite as bad as the Vektor CP1 trigger guard safety or the original Steyr M9 trigger guard safety but still very questionable. I still like to see this one and the two mentioned above manipulated when it counts.
The only good thing is that they are secondary (in 2 of 3 cases optional) and unnecessary safeties and therefore can be ignored and I hope for the users that they are infact ignored.
View attachment 1261218

no comment.

 

[5-SHOTS]

uhhhh...

When I wrote that I won't respond further on the topic I meant to say that I would no longer intervene on the topic of my post #88 adding further explanations or details to what I had already written about how I apply gun safety rules. It seemed clear to me. If I had wanted to write that I would no longer intervene in the thread I would have written that I would no longer intervene in the thread. Maybe I should have written that I would no longer intervene on the argument or the subject of my post #88 but you know I am not a native English speaker. But I think that by now your rancor towards me is leading you to contest everything I write out of prejudice. And this began after I allowed myself to argue about your fetish Tokarev.

In any case I will continue to intervene in the thread if other pistols equipped with a strange, useless or dangerous safety will come in my mind and I will not respond further to you. I hope I wrote the last part of the sentence correctly.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think four pages of this is enough.

Time to put this thread to bed as we've moved well beyond the subject we were discussing