Would it be a straw purchase if...

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Straw man purchase? I'd rather purchase a gun.

My son wanted a gun for Christmas and I did a check on
"straw sales" and found the following about a recent court case:

CHARGE:

"E. Count 6--False Statement to a Licensee in the Acquisition
of a Firearm, Aiding and Abetting
Count 6 of the indictment charged Polk with aiding and abet-
ting the purchase of a firearm through a false and fictitious
statement. In particular, the Government alleged that Polk
purchased weapons from Liberty Sports through Davidson, a
"straw purchaser." Such purchases, argues the Government,
violate 18 U.S.C. 167; 922(a)(6) because they involve the buyer
making a false statement about the true purchaser of the weapon(s)."

5TH CIRCUIT COURT RULING:

"We find that the Government's construction of 167; 922(a)(6)
sweeps too broadly so that the evidence is insufficient to
support a conviction on Count 6.(7)
Although 167; 922(a)(6) on its face does not prohibit "straw
purchases," we have nonetheless held that such transactions
violate 167; 922(a)(6). See, e.g., United States v. Ortiz-Loya,
777 F.2d 973, 979 (5th Cir. 1985). It is clear to us--indeed,
the plain language of the statute compels the conclusion--that
167; 922(a)(6) criminalizes false statements that are intended
to deceive federal firearms dealers with respect to facts material
to the "lawfulness of the sale" of firearms. (Emphasis added.)
Thus, if the true purchaser can lawfully purchase a
firearm directly, 167; 922(a)(6) liability (under a "straw
purchase" theory) does not attach.
See, e.g., Barrett v. United States, 423 U.S. 212, 220, 96 S.Ct.
498, 503, 46 L.Ed.2d 450 (1976) (holding that purpose of
167; 922(a)( 6) was "'to make it possible to keep firearms
out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them
because of age, criminal background, or incompetency'"
(quoting S.Rep. No. 1501, 90th Cong., 2d Sess. 22 (1968) U.S. Code
Cong. & Admin. News 1968 p. 4410)); United States v. Moore,
109 F.3d 1456, 1460-61 (9th Cir. 1997) (en banc), petition for
cert. filed, ---- U.S.L.W. ---- (U.S. June 2, 1997) (No. 96-9227);
United States v. White, 451 F.2d 696, 699 (5th Cir. 1971)
("One goal sought by Congress [through 167; 922(a)(6)] was control
over the ease with which criminals may acquire firearms."), cert.
denied, 405 U.S. 998, 92 S.Ct. 1268, 31 L.Ed.2d 468 (1972).(8) "

Technically, this is valid only for the Fifth Circuit jurisdiction.
New York or California would probably have their knickers in bind.

It appears that if the son can legally own a gun, the father can
buy the gun as a gift to his son, just as I could legally buy a
gun as a gift for my son with my daughter-in-law's money.

SO EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND CHILL OUT.
 
So your Dad buys a gun as a gift for you, and you give him $500 cash for a Fathers' Day present. Big deal.

Honestly, you'd think the BATFE had agents under everyones' beds the way some of you carry on.
 
He's got a point. It might be technically illegal, but you have to consider the original intention of the law: keeping random people from buying guns for other random people (specifically criminals).

It's kind of like speeding when it's bright and sunny on a straightaway, no cops around, no traffic of any sort to hit: the law says you shouldn't do it, but does anybody seriously care?
 
just as I could legally buy a
gun as a gift for my son with my daughter-in-law's money.
That would be a straw purchase. To be legal it would have to be ourchased with your own money as out lined in the paragraph from the back of 4473 that I posted above.

It's not rocket science people
How many damn ignore lists can I posibly be on ?

Example:
Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out this form, he will violate the law.

However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form.

A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATFF 4473.
 
I'd just go to a gunshow if legal in my area and purchase a handgun or two private sale if under 21. Or else hint real well on what I'd like at Bday and Xmas time! Also, is'nt it illegal for a dealer to sell ammo for use in a handgun to someone under 21?
 
Sorry, this is getting boring. If you aren't old enough to buy a handgun through a FFL, then you either buy it from a private individual assuming you're 18. If parent wants to gift the gun to you, it's legal. Wait until you're 21. It's just another year.

Life is too short. Youth is wasted on the young. Patience is a virtue.
 
I used to be manager at a very large retail store and I had to sign off on the "yellow sheets" for every gun that left the store. As far as the store is concearned, they need to believe the gun will be owned by whoever fills out the paperwork. However, gifts are not prohibited under the law.

Why not just have your parents "own" it until you are 21 and the "give" it to you? Where it is stored in the mean time is nobody's business. As far as the money goes, cash is still untracable (unless Bush has managed to tap that as well).
 
have your mom or dad legally buy the gun, and you can shoot it with them. this kind of straw purchase is understandably acceptable at most gun shops, which "legal or not by the letter of the law" is normally done. i have bought my children firearms before in this manner,,,(responsibly of course) example ,,,,i bought my 14 year old a 10/22 which he paid for with his own money, and is not allowed to use it without me, until he completes his hunter safety training course and can legally use it with a small game license,,,,ex 2 i bought my 9 year old a single shot youth 22 with special locking mechanisms controlled by a key in my gunsafe. she avidly shoots it "alone" with me and i teach her correct gun safety. this kind of straw purchase is different because it is a parent who is trained in gun safety passing on knowledge and accepting total responsability for the purchase and use of the firearm. that is the way i grew up, and that is the way my children will grow up. i have children who i will not do this with because they are not mature enough to teach, or who will properly follow instruction, so i pick and choose based on each and everyones personality and maturity. i have 6 sons and 4 daughters, and each one reguardless of their age is at a different level.

thank god for our freedoms!!!!!!

palerider1
 
Sounds like this discussion is going to go on until you can legally buy it yourself. Good grief, who's going to turn you in? Your Dad?
 
Extracted quotes from BATFE www.atf.gov:
A "straw purchase" is a situation in which a person is using a
"straw purchaser"(another person) to acquire one or more firearms
from a Federally licensed firearms dealer, to hide the identity of
the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm/s. ... this
is the most common way that prohibited people, such as convicted
felons, and drug traffickers, obtain firearms.
......
(in case discussed) The defendants admitted that Land and another
individual represented in these statements that they were the actual
buyers of the firearms, when in fact they were purchased for Baugh
and Johnson, who are barred as convicted felons from owning or
possessing firearms.
.......
Since 2001, Attorney General John Ashcroft has directed U.S. Attorneys
to target individuals who lie in order to obtain a firearm they could
not legally purchase, as well as straw purchasers.
.......
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

For years a person buying a gun as a gift for a qualified
family member has been regarded by courts and the ATF as the
actual purchaser of the gun. The "gifting" is a legal private
transfer. As long as the recipient of the gift is qualified
to purchase a firearm and is a family member, courts and ATF
have not treated these gift transfers as "straw purchases."

Summarizing in lay terms the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals
ruling in Case No. 96-40836, USA v Charles Ray Polk,
17 July 1997, we have:

Count 6: Aiding and Abetting a False Statement to a Licensee
in the Acquisition of a Firearm

This involved several "straw purchases" by confidential
informant Davidson on behalf of accused Polk. At that time,
Polk had no criminal convictions or other liabilities to
prevent him from buying a gun in person.

The prosecution argued: "that Davidson's purchases were
"straw purchase" transactions because, notwithstanding the
fact that Polk could lawfully purchase firearms, Davidson
falsely informed a federally licensed firearms dealer that
he was the true purchaser of the weapons."

The Fifth Circuit argued: "It is clear to us--indeed, the
plain language of the statute compels the conclusion--that
922(a)(6) criminalizes false statements that are intended
to deceive federal firearms dealers with respect to facts
material to the "lawfulness of the sale" of firearms. ...
Thus, if the true purchaser can lawfully purchase a firearm
directly, 922(a)(6) liability (under a "straw purchase"
theory) does not attach."

The Fifth Circuit observed that court rulings had held that:
"922(a)(6) was " `to make it possible to keep firearms out
of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them
because of age, criminal background, or incompetency' " "
and that: "One goal sought by Congress [through 922(a)(6)]
was control over the ease with which criminals may acquire
firearms."

The Fifth Circuit concluded: "Here, it is undisputed that
Polk could have lawfully purchased firearms from Liberty
Sports, that CI Davidson was in the "business" of buying and
selling firearms, that Davidson did not purchase weapons
solely for Polk, and that Polk's participation in the alleged
crime consisted of nothing more than a request to purchase
firearms. Under these facts, we find that no reasonable jury
could have convicted Polk beyond a reasonable doubt for
aiding and abetting a violation of 922(a)(6).9"

Given that a man (Polk) whose convictions on counts:
(1) Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction;
(2) and (3) Solicitation to Commit Crimes of Violence and
(5) Unlawful Possession of a Machine Gun
were upheld on appeal, had a conviction vacated on
(6) Aiding and Abetting False Statement to a Licensee in the
Acquisition of a Firearm ("straw purchase"),
for the reasons given by the Fifth District Court, it is
difficult to see how that Court would rule differently in
the case of a father buying a gun as a gift for a son who
is legally entitled to lawfully purchase and own firearms,
particularly if the son is already in possession of lawfully
purchased firearms.

Polk was an un-convicted criminal having an un-related party,
confidential informant Davidson, buy guns for him, and the
conviction on "straw purchase" was vacated because at the
time of the purchase, Polk was qualified to purchase in person.
To believe that a son having a father buy a gun as a gift
would be treated more harshly by that court is hard to accept.

Violating the intent of the Law as passed by Congress is
one thing; the rules and regulations promulgated to enforce
that law can get really sticky as time passes. And the rules
and regulations tend to take precedence over the intent of
Congress in passing the law in the first place.

The Fifth Court noted in 1997:
"We note a marked difference in the "straw purchase" warning
on the reverse side of the August 1994 version of ATF Form 4473
and the April 1991 version of that same form. The April 1991
warning states that a "straw purchase" may violate federal
firearms laws if the licensee knows and has reasonable cause to
believe that the true purchaser of the firearm(s) is "ineligible"
to make that purchase directly.

"By contrast, the August 1994 version of Form 4473
significantly broadens the definition of "straw purchase"
transactions: "A `straw purchase' occurs when the actual buyer
uses another person (the straw purchaser) to execute ATF
Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the
actual buyer." See, e.g., United States v. Moore, 84 F.3d 1567,
1571 (9th Cir. 1996) (noting the different interpretations of
illegal "straw purchase" transactions), on rehearing en banc,
109 F.3d 1456 (9th Cir. 1997) (en banc).""

NOW, the 2005 version of the 4473 warning on "straw purchase"
adds language that the FUNDS used to purchase the gun must be
the purchaser's funds.

The intention of this regulation appears to be to prevent a
person unqualified from purchasing a gun giving funds to
a qualified party to make the purchase for the unqualified
party.

Straw Purchase is becoming a minefield full of tripwires.

Sometimes I feel like I am trapped in a Franz Kafka or
George Orwell novel.
 
Straw purchase is defined more broadly by dealers than it is by the BATF. There are straw purchases in fact and there are straw purchases that are illegal. These threads may confuse you. THEREFORE, DO THIS:

See if your pops will simply buy it and then gift it to you. Who knows, in a few years, he may want it back and you can square it up then.
 
Lupinus said:
Yes it is, my response to that would simply buy over the internet in bulk, cheaper anyways.

Don't most places make you sign a statement saying you are over 21 years old and/or send in a copy of DL or ID? For those under 21 though Wal Mart simply asks if the ammo such as 22lr or 9x19 is for use in a long gun or pistol and then the cash register asks if you are over 21 or 18 accordingly.

Wal Mart is not that dumb though as when you buy something like 25acp, it does not ask if it is for a long gun though I still like to tell the clerk I have a long gun in 25acp even though I'm over 21:)
 
As long as the recipient of the gift is qualified
to purchase a firearm and is a family member, courts and ATF
have not treated these gift transfers as "straw purchases."
From form 4473:banghead: :banghead:
Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out this form, he will violate the law.
However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form.

Nothing to do with prohibitted peole or family members
 
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