Would you build a GB-22 in order to make a profit at a Gun Buy Back?

[lysanderxiii]

"A barrel does not have to be rifled to make a "legal pistol", Dixie Gunworks has been selling smooth-bores pistols for years."

Are those modern rimfire or centerfire guns? Because the ATF seems to think smoothbore handguns are AOW's:

"It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA."

bottom of section 2.1.5 in:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

I think muzzleloaders et al. get a pass because they are 'Antique firearms':
"The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof..."
paragraph G here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

ATF definitions:

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Any Other Weapon” means:

• Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
• A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
• Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
  
• Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

1) Being smooth-bore is in itself, not illegal in a pistol, it must also must fire a fixed shot shell. Unfortunately, all pistol calibers are available, or can be made, in shotshell versions... However, there is such a thing as a smooth-bore, non-blackpowder pistols: the 12mm Gyro-jet pistol is legally a pistol.

2) Buy-backs usually include amnesty for NFA stuff.

 

[tuckerdog1]

The only reason I ever went to a gun buy back, was to head off the sellers, offer a tad more than the city, and get a deal. That worked out pretty good. City was offering a $100 grocery store card. I gave $110 cash for a virtually new Mossberg 500 ( home defense model ) 12ga.

 

[goldpelican]

I've got two pistols awaiting a gun buyback. I wouldn't ever want to wish them on another owner. One is an Jimenez (Jennings).

Then again, if they did find their way into a criminals hands, it would be guaranteed to stovepipe just trying to chamber the first round!

 

[Sam1911]

2) Buy-backs usually include amnesty for NFA stuff.

Ha ha. Yes but building and owning and walking around with such a thing, on your way to the buy back lets say, have no amnesty.

 

[FROGO207]

I own a couple or three old junks that would go to a buy back as they are rusted dinged beyond having anything useful on them to salvage.

 

[zb338]

It would be breaking the law big time. I'm totally against them paying for guns,
and I wouldn't want to be any part of that whole activity.

Zeke

 

[JTHunter]

How many of you have heard of the single-shot .45 ACP guns given to the Resistance during WW2 called the "Liberator"? While not as good as the Liberator's .45 round, a .22 would be better than nothing. I might make two of them.

 

[Browning]

No, I wouldn't build one for the purpose of turning it in to a propaganda effort gun 'buy back' program.

Kind of hard to 'buy back' something that they never owned to begin with though. Call it for what it is.

I would be interested in building one if it's ever for sale in kit form just for the mental exercise and to improve my skills though.

 

[TRX]

Tthe local politicos were down to single Happy Meal gift cards at the last buy.

Serbu's design looks awfully labor-intensive for $100. I was thinking more along the traditional car antenna (though in these antenna-less days, some 5/16" Bundy tubing might be be the ticket), a nail, and a rubber band...

 

[DT Guy]

Has everyone seen that the ATF has been using license plate recognition software at gun shows? It seems safe to me to assume that local police departments would be employing both that, and facial recognition software, at some point at these gun buyback circuses. No thanks.


Larry

 

[MachIVshooter]

If I were going to do a "buyback gun", it would be more along the lines of the stuff posted on page one. A 20 minute junk parts throw together that goes bang.

As it were, when Mark shipped back a piece I contracted him to make a helical cut in (too much headache to set up manual machines to do one cut), he sent a set of GB-22 plans with it. Was a fun little 3 afternoon build. I did change it up a bit, using 1/4" 304 stainless for the frame rather than 3/16 1018 mild plate, two pieces of 1/2" 304 for the slide instead of 3 pieces 1/4" 1018, a solid chunk of 304 for the barrel block, mahogany grips. Added sights. Oh, and I chambered it in .380.

 

[MachIVshooter]

BTW, if anyone has spent the $12 - is it just a drawing, or a tutorial book, or what? How do they rifle the barrel, for example?

$12 gets you Mark's complete set of prints with a frame template, but no tutorial.

He is still waiting for ATFs blessing on a kit, which would probably include a rifled barrel (he bought a .22 button specifically for these and has been playing with it). As of now, the plan is to bore your barrel block and install a rifled & chambered barrel liner. You could weld it, pin it, or do as I did, which is stepped barrel and press fit, with JB Weld epoxy for good measure.

 

[hdwhit]

lysanderxiii wrote:
A barrel does not have to be rifled to make a "legal pistol", Dixie Gunworks has been selling smooth-bores pistols for years.

Well, it seems to me that Dixie Gun Works is selling pistols that are rifled. See the following for an example:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=5928&osCsid=q9e8p4rj9k6io0p4epsbmros31

As others have already posted (so I won't waste both our time by copying their posts), modern cartridge guns, including 22 Long Rifle rimfire, MUST have a rifled barrel to be legal.

So, since you have already posted photographs of extemporized firemarms that, by their very appearance violate the GCA and/or the NFA, please explain why the GB-22 would qualify for a gun "buy-back" without a rifled barrel.

 

[hdwhit]

MachIVShooter wrote:
$12 gets you Mark's complete set of prints with a frame template, but no tutorial.
He is still waiting for ATFs blessing on a kit, which would probably include a rifled barrel (he bought a .22 button specifically for these and has been playing with it). As of now, the plan is to bore your barrel block and install a rifled & chambered barrel liner. You could weld it, pin it, or do as I did, which is stepped barrel and press fit, with JB Weld epoxy for good measure.

So, what you're confirming is that pending ATF approval of both the plans that the company is already selling (without disclaimer as to the need for rifling) along with offering the rifling button which is not mentioned in the plans posted in the OP, the pistol is illegal to build and far from allowing the builder of such a pistol to claim a $100 reward for turning in a worthless piece of junk is, in reality, liable to get the person turning a GS-22 arrested for having an unregistered GCA or NFA firearm.

The fact of the matter is that Serbu - as shown on their website - seems well aware of the requirements of what is necessary to build a legal firearm, but they somehow manage to "forget" that a modern pistol needs to have a rifled barrel when they publish the plans for the GB-22. The plans for the GB-22 show a barrel block, but such barrel block is not offered for sale nor are the requirements for rifling it disclosedf. This appears to make the GB-22 nothing more than a "false flag" operation designed to ensnare people who are foolish enough to build one without rifling the barrel into commiting a GCA/NFA violation.

 

[kozak6]

Serbu's pistol is brilliant. It's great publicity, gets the message across, and on top of that, is too difficult to make. He can't risk everybody making them, as what if they start turning up at crime scenes? It's a simple firearm, but imagine hacksawing the frame out of steel. Although, most of it could actually be plastic for a buyback... If you were going to cut metal, it's probably less work to make a Jaco derringer or something. Unless you had an abrasive jet CNC machine...

The rifling of the barrel is irrelevant. The pistol isn't actually intended to be manufactured. Anyone who is going to be bothered to build the thing probably is familiar with the law and has a few spare barrels floating around anyways. The last time I checked, rimfire rifled barrel liners are also frighteningly inexpensive. I mean, you aren't going to build this thing after a $10 hardware store trip.

Now if he was serious, he would have crossed a slam-bang with a rubber band gun. That's actually pretty fancy as far as homemade firearms go. The problem is that anyone can hacksaw a water pipe. If he had a buildable gun, it would proliferate. PA Luty type SMG's keep turning up in Australia, for example.

 

[MachIVshooter]

So, what you're confirming is that pending ATF approval of both the plans that the company is already selling (without disclaimer as to the need for rifling) along with offering the rifling button which is not mentioned in the plans posted in the OP, the pistol is illegal to build and far from allowing the builder of such a pistol to claim a $100 reward for turning in a worthless piece of junk is, in reality, liable to get the person turning a GS-22 arrested for having an unregistered GCA or NFA firearm.

The fact of the matter is that Serbu - as shown on their website - seems well aware of the requirements of what is necessary to build a legal firearm, but they somehow manage to "forget" that a modern pistol needs to have a rifled barrel when they publish the plans for the GB-22. The plans for the GB-22 show a barrel block, but such barrel block is not offered for sale nor are the requirements for rifling it disclosedf. This appears to make the GB-22 nothing more than a "false flag" operation designed to ensnare people who are foolish enough to build one without rifling the barrel into commiting a GCA/NFA violation.

You're making a lot of assumptions there, bud. Definitely putting the you-know-what in the word, too.

You don't need ATF approval to sell plans. You do need approval to sell kits if they're any more than raw pieces of stock (like the "0% billet lower", which is more of a joke). That is what Mark is waiting on.

The plans do specify a rifled barrel. The OP only posted the first page with exploded view; the other 8 pages of the plans would need to have all dimensions redacted to comply with ITAR.

Mark is not selling rifling buttons, either. Not sure where you got that idea, aside from skimming my post without taking the time to really pay attention to what I said. Nobody is going to buy a $400 rifling button to build this gun. The kit, once ATF approves a version, will have the option of being ordered with a rifled & chambered .22 LR barrel.

I would suggest before making any further judgements of the plans that you pony up the $12 and order a set. Mark is a stand-up guy, and an asset to the RKBA community. You have no business judging, especially with the extremely limited understanding you have here.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

"... having an unregistered GCA or NFA firearm ..."
ATF has ruled that if you can legally possess a Title I GCA firearm, ie not a "prohibited person", you can legally make a Title I GCA firearm for your own personal use.
You only have to register and pay tax with the feds if you want to legally make a Title II NFA firearm.
There is no federal registration/taxation requirement on Title I GCA firearms; maybe some states have additional laws, but that's not GCA.

 

[lysanderxiii]

"... having an unregistered GCA or NFA firearm ..."
ATF has ruled that if you can legally possess a Title I GCA firearm, ie not a "prohibited person", you can legally make a Title I GCA firearm for your own personal use.
You only have to register and pay tax with the feds if you want to legally make a Title II NFA firearm.
There is no federal registration/taxation requirement on Title I GCA firearms; maybe some states have additional laws, but that's not GCA.

Ego, you can make a smooth-bore pistol and it's legal (with the proper stamps)