Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by TimM, Oct 7, 2009.
This is the most logical post I have read in weeks. Perfect.
Other people have raised valid questions about the tactical soundness of placing yourself(and your gun) within arms reach of the BG. And others have raised valid concerns about HIV/hepatitis/etc. I'm going to take a slightly different approach:
After catching a BG in my truck when he broke into it and when the cops showed up they asked 'why didn't you shoot him' I did a little soul-searching. That question was moot because I had filed the paperwork for my CHL but had not received it yet and was therefore not licensed to carry (and I was not carrying) but it got me thinking...
If this were to happen again (after I got my license): I'm not going to shoot someone over a car stereo (shooting to defend property is legal in TX). If he pulls a gun, now it's game on. Basically the answer that I found for myself is that I'm not shooting (or drawing, or anything besides getting out the cell and calling 911) unless my or my family's lives are in danger.
To that end, one of the things that was drilled into us during the CHL class was "You DO NOT shoot to kill. You DO NOT shoot to wound. You DO shoot to stop." You do not want to be on the witness stand with the BG in a wheelchair and his lawyer saying "see, he shot to kill and messed it up and now look at what a pathetic life my client has." Similarly you do not want his widow in the courtroom crying while you testify that you shot to wound and the BG ended up dead. And if you say you shot to kill, that has all kinds of ways of turning you into a cold blooded killer. But if you shoot to stop - "Why did you shoot the BG 69 times?" "Well Sir, he was trying to kill me/rape my girlfriend/sister/whatever and I shot to stop him. I kept shooting until he stopped trying to do what he was doing."
Back to the original question: I'm not shooting anyone unless I'm MORALLY justified in doing so. I think that's a higher standard that when you're LEGALLY justified in doing so (depending on how the law is written in your state). So if I'm justified (in my mind) to shoot, I'm justified to kill. Stated another way, if I have to draw it's for a darn good reason and if the bad guy gets killed that's his problem. He forfeit any aid that I might render if say, I were to drive up right after a car accident.
No matter what your answer is, that's got to be a LONG couple of minutes waiting on the cops after you shoot.
"Give aid" also means different things.
Would I call 911 and report that medics are needed right away to treat a gunshot wound? Yes.
Medics and the police are trained and know what to do. I'm not.
Do I think I could render aid myself? No. I don't have the skills, equipment, or knowledge to do so.
I, too, have no desire to shoot someone over a car stereo. I fully agree that "moral" is a higher standard than "legal". I would only shoot to defend my life or the life of another innocent person. Self-defense ends when the threat stops, BOTH morally and legally. I'm not a doctor, however, and the best aid I can give is to dial 911 immediately and give good information.
Another excellent point.
Well it seems to be a consensus with the exception to maybe one. And, I cannot say that I disagree.
They are criminals who just did something bad enough that I was forced to use deadly force. Now they are on their own. I just hope they aren't bleeding on my carpet.
My standard answer when I was in the Army was that if I shot him, then that is how I meant him to be, so no I'm not treating him. That was in the army, now I would be scared because he most likely is not alone, and getting close to a person who was just shot is not a good Idea, what happens after they fall down, groan a lot and discover that it hurts, but they haven't died yet...
Do a search, lots o threads talking about BG who died after being transported from the scene, and other that continued to move after being shot. The police swat teams train with simunitions / paintball, the don't go down in their scenarios after being hit because case studies have shown that many officers continued to fight effectively after being hit, and that psychologically it trains the officer not to go down (think western gunfight) when hit.
Long winded to say that now I would stay a safe distance, maintain my safety, activate 911. That and blood is really yucky, I mean I just stopped him from hurting me and mine, why should I put myself at risk of a blood born disease.
as an emt-basic, no, i would not. there is an amazing amount of **** out there you can get from bodily fluid contact, and i won't be taking the time to glove and mask up, set my firearm down/holster it, and then attempt to render aid to somebody. honestly, with sd ammo, if i shot right, they're probably screwed in the first place with the small amount of training i have.
If you are by yourself, I say no and just keep him/she covered until help arrives. If you are a trained EMT and there are others (i.e. a friend) that you trust, who can operate a firearm (yours) or has a firearm, to cover you then MAYBE you may help. I say maybe for two reasons.
One, if he/she is unarmed at this point and NOT posing a viable threat, then yes administer help. But be ready to move or react quickly if you feel he/she may continue with their actions. You also have to factor in whether there are other bad guys/girls around.
Two, IF you have to shoot someone in a self defense situation AND you render them help to the best of YOUR ability, it will look good for you when you go to court. And you WILL go to court. That's a given.
The decision is yours. Personally I am not an EMT so my level of treatment may be something as simple as telling them to lay still and that help is on the way. This is also good if there are video cameras and WITNESSES who hear you say this. Whatever you do, refrain from saying stupid things like, "I hope you die you SOB!" This will only add to your grief when the prosecuting attourney gets a witness on the stand that says, "After so-and-so shot Mr./Mrs. Bad Guy/Girl he told them I hope you die!"
Remember, everything you say will be repeated in court and every bullet has a lawyer attached to it!
I hate to disagree with you Shadow 7D but having served 23 years in the military and currently in the law enforcement field, if you say that on the witness stand you are screwed! The only thing that you need to mention about your military training is if its asked. Otherwise you will just portray yourself as some crazy gun toting veteran. You are in the USA, not in a war zone. I can however agree with you on the blood born pathogens. THAT is something that can be brought up in court.
You have to remember, a jury is made up of regular people. There may be one or two on the jury that can identify with what you said, but not the grandma who hosts the church bake sale or the college kid that works at the local coffee shop. That is who will be sitting in the jury box.
By the way I NEVER "shoot to kill" and I never shoot in the arm or leg to disable. I "aim and fire center mass until the threat to both myself and others around me has been neutralized and/or until the offenders actions has ceased." IF the subject dies as a result of my placing several shots into his/her torso, then that is an unfortunate circumstance. But one he/she has placed themselves in.
How can you possibly know if the BG is unarmed without closing to arms-length and putting yourself in serious jeopardy of a previously concealed cutting weapon? Also, if you're not trained to deliver medical aid, what aid could you possibly render?
First, it's been previously shown in thousands of cases of legal self-defense that you may never see a courtroom. Some states prohibit civil suits over self-defense in cases where criminal charges aren't filed, and many more times, the family will know it's a lost cause and won't even try.
Second, in no way is it a guarantee that attempting to render medical aid will "look good" in the courtroom. If anything, it may undermine your claim that you were in fear for your life. There is also the risk of causing further damage with your attempts at medical intervention, and then you really may have a wrongful death lawsuit on your hands.
"Yes, your honor, the defendant was justified in shooting my client to stop the attack, but after the attack was long over and he was no longer a threat, the defendant attempted to deliver medical aid despite his gross lack of medical training. He would have survived the gunshot wounds he received during the attack, but the further injuries led to the wrongful death of this family's only son."
Yep, I will render aid in the form of telling the 911 dispatcher to send an ambulance.
I'd dial 911 and report that someone had been shot.
I'm not a doctor or an EMT. My first aid training ended with the Infantry Officer's Basic Course at Ft. Benning in 1980.
I haven't the slightest intention of risking catching AIDS, hepatitis, or anything else from somebody who only a moment ago was trying to maim or kill me.
I ESPECIALLY haven't the slightest intention of risking a personal injury suit from somebody who only a moment ago was trying to maim or kill me.
My legal and moral obligations are fulfilled when I dial 911. There's not the slightest chance that my assailant would attempt to render any assistance to me were our roles reversed. He's FAR more likely to try to render the coup de grace instead.
The no BS answer is, if I defended myself, I'm not about to save my threat. I don't want the civil suit either way, but I'm not going to try and explain why I wanted the BG dead, then rode the fence and wanted the BG alive. After commitment to engage the target, there should not be any 2nd thought. If so, good luck with the proceedings that follow.
Measure twice, cut once; type of deal.
i just administered a bg vaccine. that is the extent of my expertise.
as with any vaccine there are side effects: death, sudden sever blood loss, tissue damage, acute pain.
if you feel that it is not working simply let me know in a threating maner and i will administer another dose.
if working, assume a still, prone position and i will summon a team of trained personel to acces and deal with any and all of your side effects.
you got shot for being a threat to me and mine. i will call the police, but the only other thing i am willing to do for you, is shoot you again if need be.
1. Is the rag sterile? If not, maybe you've committed a tort against him by unnecessarily introducing an infectious agent. Did you recently wipe peanut butter off of a butter knife with it? Does your assailant have a peanut allergy? I haven't the slightest intention of exposing myself to lawsuit by rendering incompetently crafted medical attention to somebody who just tried to kill me.
2. As I recall from my Army training, something airtight like a sheet of plastic is more appropriate.
I don't know WHAT'S "left in him" and don't care. After I dial 911 for COMPETENT medical assistance, my job's done. If he expires in the mean time, that's just one more reason not to put other people in immediate and credible fear of life and limb. People tell me it's dangerous.
In my opinion, rbernie said it best.
I cannot think of any circumstances where I would render first aid to someone I just shot. If anything I would try to vacate the area (while being sure to keep the police on my cell phone). He might have accomplices, or, in certain neighborhoods, bystanders might form a lynch mob. And I have no medical training, so it is unlikely I could do any good - or even further harm - anyway.
If you do your part correctly, there should be no need for first aid I believe.
I think of the question this way:
If a polar bear attacked you and you wounded it, would you be obligated to give it first aid? Or would you wait for the professionals, in case maybe the polar bear got better while you were applying bandages?
Or say you get yourself electrocuted by a downed wire after a storm. Is your priority patching the line back yourself, or staying safe?
I would NOT administer first aid. It puts me under even more legal and civil liability, and ensures that I will probably end up paying for defending myself.
I suspect I would be in no condition for clear thinking at that moment in time after putting down a BG in a justifiable self defense. Hope it never happens. The fact is I'd probably be in shock. I would try eliminate the threat to me and try to stay alert for new threats until the authorities arrived. If in the meantime, all his blood leaked out, so be it. I'm not a police officer and I have no way to call for backup. I would be all alone.
Frankly, I can't predict what I would do, how I would feel, or how I would react. Too many variables. Not much for planning something like that in advance. I just hope that it never happens.
lots of great answers here..... but....... be sure as soon the cops arrive to put your weapon down... GET IT OUT OF YOUR HAND!!.....i suppose by now you've seen the story about the poor home owner in florida i think that was shot 6 times when the cops showed up.....
LIFE IS SHORT.....
A lawyer told me the best bet would be to yell loudly, "I'm going to get help, I'm calling the police." Then get out of there as it technically is still a dangerous situation.
Do you think the bad guy would give you aid after he shot you and took your wallet?
Our instruction at my CCW class, from two former police officers, that the best course of action was to do nothing.
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