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Would you now see a psychologist?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by valnar, Feb 1, 2013.

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  1. RTR_RTR

    RTR_RTR Member

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    You discredit MHP's both for "not being able to help another due to not having been in his shoes" while also faulting them for "having issues of their own." Your biases are showing. Although the "fruitcakes" was another hint ;)

    A strong individual is one willing to accept help for a problem he cannot sufficiently conquer on his own. It's a disgusting marginalization of mental illness to refer to seeking care as a weakness of character.
     
  2. Alaska444

    Alaska444 member

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    Sorry, but all medical encounters MUST be documented. It is malpractice and negligence not to record the encounter. I am a retired doc, so yes, I know the rules.
     
  3. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

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    Hm. I'd like to clear something up here... Now, im obviously not saying this is a be all end all here. But i do have a BS in Psychology. What most of us are reffering to is a very small part of what psychology actually is. What we're generally talking about here is called abnormal psychology (Dunno if my terminology will be correct as I have been out of school for about 5 years now.) The reason this portion of the field is so wishy washy is because most of what we here about it is in fact wishy washy. We see skewed news reports that use specifically incorrect analysis of variables and we latch on to that as a science. Anyone who spend any time actually getting an education in regards to psychology will tell you this. There are SOLID facts in the feild of psychology. Their just based on likelyhoods :)... Lets take classical conditioning for example in the case of pavlov's dogs... This being a very basic case study many of you will know about it. Its based on the psychology of association. Basically pavlov would ring a bell before he fed his dogs. At first, the dogs only salivated at the sight of food, or smell more likely. Now, pavlov would ring the bell before feedings. He soon found that by ringing the bell alone he could bring the dogs to salivate because they asociated that sound with food coming. Thats psychology too folks. Be it "behavioral psych" which is a subset of the field. We all talk about the fight or flight response right? as were always talking about defending outselves on this site... Well one could argue that the action of the response is purley physiological. Which I wouldnt argue with. But the conclusion we draw as a reult of the knee jerk reaction, to fight, or flight, well thats purely psychological in the behavioral form.


    To conclude, most of the things we find out in the field of psycology are displayed in such a way; "we can detirmine within a 5% (sometime as low as 1 percent by adjusting for "power") Margin of error that when variable A is introduced, variable B is effected in a significant way"

    No, thats not a fact, but its as close to face as we can get without a crystal ball. And we can make smart assumtions based on those figures.
     
  4. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Same here, same reason.

    Any counseling I think I need, whether it be general advice, depression, or anything in between, I get from my pastor. Not about to change that.
     
  5. Vurtle

    Vurtle Member

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    I agree it takes a strong man to admit he is weak and needs guidance. I just believe that guidance should come from those well experienced with a track record of true grit. I also understand that not everyone has these kind of men in their life and they are not sure of where to turn to find these kind of people. Therefore they usually refer to the yellow pages. I hope people seek these kind of men and surround themselves with them so when the chips are down, they know who to turn to. There are also predators among these crowds looking for weak people to abuse for their own selfish greeds. I have also been burned by these types of people and my radar for them is better now. Not perfect, but improved.
    Please don't confuse people who have walked in their shoes with people having weird personalities. I could see how one might assume that they could be linked.
    For the record, I started off as a psych major and got away from that major pretty quick. There are some very wacky people in this world wanting to influence others in their decisions. Not all of them though, just the ones I encountered. I also have friends and family in this profession.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  6. RTR_RTR

    RTR_RTR Member

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    There are wacky gun owners, pastors, priests, etc. too, but I'm not misrepresenting a vast minority as the majority. I think you have a flawed idea of the purpose a MHP serves - they are not there to serve as a role model for patients, but rather to facilitate their return to healthy daily life by using modalities (CBT, systematic desensitization, pharmacotherapy, etc.) that others are not as well versed in.
     
  7. Isaac-1

    Isaac-1 Member

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    I think it is important to seperate those things that we generally consider emotional issues, from those things that are caused by brain chemistry. As well as those that may be harmful to themselves and others from those that may have a nervous tick or other similar condition

    As to the state of the science think of a case of an otherwise normal acting adult male with a stable life style, etc. suddenly starts to hear voices in his head, this happened to a guy I have known for over half my life. After much testing the doctors have said they don't know why this happened, but the thing I really found shocking to learn was that the doctors have no idea why about 1/3 of people that hear voices in their heads hear them. (note in the case of this guy it is not the stereotypical voices telling him to do stuff, instead from what he tells me it is is more like a running commentary in the background that fades in and out often saying gibberish phrases like "and the duck went for a walk to the left") To me this guy seems fairly harmless, at least on the topic of mental illness, although I will admit he has been known to have a bit of a temper, particularly in his younger years, but I think that is probably true of most of us to one level or another.

    By contrast I had a relative by marraige that often gave me the feeling he could go off at any random time, he was bi-polar, even with medication his stability slowly spiraled out of control over a number of years to the point where he could not function in society, went from a guy that ran his own sucessful business with as many as a dozen employees, to a guy that could not keep a job selling furniture and finally ended up on some type of disabilty.
     
  8. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Emotion is brain chemistry. Doctors and psychiatrists are just hung up on what constitutes "normal" amounts of certain chemicals vs abnormal chemical imbalances, which could be caused by genetic or other physiological differences. The only reason it matters at all is because humans are by and large social creatures, and a person who has a thought process or perception vastly different from those around him/her, there can be a social disconnect and thus prompt said person to be labeled dysfunctional.

    How do you draw the line between normal and abnormal? Most current mental "disorders" are defined simply by taking a particular mental trait, and tacking on "adversely affects the individual's life." So in other words, a person could be an absolute nutcase internally, but if they blend well, they'll never even become a blip on the radar, unless and until they snap.
     
  9. XD 45acp

    XD 45acp Member

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    When I think about this topic, I am reminded of my Miranda Rights "Anything you say can be used against you" SO,... pass on the psyc Doctor...
     
  10. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    No. Absolutely not. I am in the military and have seen firsthand how much damage can be done to ones life through even one conversation about mental health with someone in authority. No matter what they tell you, in the military, chaplains, medics, doctors, DoD health care providers, etc all work for the US Military first. And thus they always put the needs of the Army first. But they say that you come first in order to trick you into opening up. It happens over and over. A soldier is going through some stuff and talks to the chaplain or someone in his chain of command, and before he even knows what's going on he's being pulled off missions, having his weapon taken away, put into forced counseling, even being reclassed or kicked out of the military.

    Military MHPs are NOT there to help you. They are there to identify "problem" soldiers and get them out as quickly as possible. What does that have to do with us as gun owners? Well if laws are passed, either through ObamaCare or through gun control legislation, you will see the same sort of thing happen to civilian MHPs. They won't be working for you, they will be working for Uncle Scam. And anything you tell them in confidence, will end up being put on some list or database and used against you.

    The ONLY way any sort of mental health assistance will ever work is if seeking it is separated from life-consequences. As long as there is a sliver of a chance that even mentioning mental issues to even nurse will end up written down and filed away, you're better off keeping your mouth shut. Mental health and state-imposed limitations should never ever ever come into contact with one another. Ever. And as long as they do, avoid MHPs like the plague.
     
  11. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    well thats the problem, the fact that you might be put on a list in the first place is often grounds enough to prevent many people from seeking the treatment they need....and to me, it would seem treating them would be more effective at stopping any proposed crime( as people with mental illness are FAR more likely to either be victims of crime, or hurt themselves rather than hurt other people) they may commit.

    mental illness is just that....an illness.

    if you though you had cancer, wouldnt you go to a doctor to have them check it out?

    so why are so many people so reluctant to go if they feel they have depression/ bipolar/ ect?

    and barring any extremely serious conditions, i generally do not feel having a mental illness in its self should be grounds for having a right removed.....thousands of people walk around with bipolar/ depression/ ect....and they for the most part live normal lives and you probably wouldnt notice anything unless they told you.
     
  12. gp911

    gp911 Member

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    I work in the mental health field myself and have an M.S. in general psychology. There are specific diagnostic criteria for all mental health diagnoses. The subjective part where the MHP interprets the answers they receive in the clinical interview is where the danger lies because people have biases and while MHPs are supposed to be vigilant about them they are still human and make errors. Also, the part that concerns me about all the recent talk about gun ownership and mental health is that some politician with no MH experience may create a list of disqualifying conditions for gun rights that includes "disorders" that are totally normal parts of the human experience such as bereavement or adjustment disorders from chronic pain, etc. Then that paranoia about lists and seeking help is 100% valid. Also one poster noted their experience with the military and I've seen that firsthand as well. They take soldiers' rights away in ways one never sees in the civilian world. On pain meds? No driving for you, doesn't matter if you're a single mother, go ride the bus with your kid. No exaggeration there, give somebody a little power...
     
  13. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    Because there are no politicians talking about infringing people's Constitutional Rights for seeking cancer treatment. There are not bills being drafted that would put cancer patients on a watch list.
     
  14. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Like some of other posters I also have a strong educational background (college degree, blah, blah) and many years (20+) of experience in the mental health field.

    Sometimes discussion forums provide good information and others, like this one, is so rife with misinformation as to discredit the forum.

    One of the biggest misconceptions discussed here is that you have to be mentally ill to see a MHP. This is totally false. Mental counseling can be used to help a person deal with major issues in their life such as dealing with the loss of a loved one, relationship problems with a significant other and family, or longer term issues like serious medical illness such as cancer.

    I can’t begin how many times in my life I have heard someone, especially teenagers, state they just want someone to really listen to them. Those that say they will never go see a MHP but go to a bar for a few beers with their friends. They go to the bar and discuss problems they be having with a supervisor at work, problems with their spouse or with one of their kids, etc. Sometimes the buddies in the group offer advice based on their real world experience or they may do nothing more than just listen to you.

    Just like beer buddies a good counselor is a good listener only in different setting. They will not only listen to the patient’s comments but will ask questions to bring out more information. This is not “crawling inside one’s head’ but intended to help both the counselor and the patient gain a clearer picture of the issues they are affecting them. The counselor after gaining enough information will offer suggestions for the patient to consider to address the issues they are concerned about.

    There is no “silver bullet.” Every person is different and every situation is different. What works for me may not work for you but by being provided with information the patient will have different options to deal with their issues that they did not know about before.
     
  15. Bianchi?

    Bianchi? Member

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    With the government continuing to poke their nose further and further into my health care and history, I will not see a psychologist. Well, willingly at least. You could probably force me into the office. But that's about it.
     
  16. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    In the first place, why would I go see one? chris3
     
  17. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    well yes......but even assuming they were.......would you still postpone cancer treatment at the risk of being black listed?

    perhaps cancer is a bad analogy, as most mental illnesses are typically not directly fatal.....

    this is really more of a quality of life question........lets compare it to being paralyzed.

    now i dont condone any new regulations regarding banning rights to those with certain illnesses.....but lets assume for now that is the case.

    would you seek treatment for paralysis( mental illness) if it meant you could potentially lose you ability to own a gun?

    i dont know the answer, ide imagine it would depend upon the extent of your paralysis( mental illness) and how much of an impact it had on your life....
     
  18. steelerdude99

    steelerdude99 Member

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    My worry is that the main way of treating mental health conditions is with drugs. Depression and even less problematic problems are treated with drugs. By the way, "shyness" is now considered a treatable condition. The trails have documented possible side-effects and the possible side-effects are weighed against the benefits. But the tests do not include a large enough sample to document all side-effects as maybe only one person exhibited the side affect. The drug company may conclude that the less prevalent side-effect may just be a coincidence as they rush to get to market. Another "by the way", the results of unreleased studies are heavily guarded. Said differently, the study found a problem that the drug company did not want the public to know about.

    Without drug treatment a depressed person wants to stay in bad all day with the covers over their head. With drugs, they want to kill themselves. Which is worse?

    See link and quote: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/medications_depression.htm

    chuck

     
  19. gspn

    gspn Member

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    Dude...that's funny.
     
  20. gym

    gym member

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    If a shrink never had a gun stuck in their face while a loved one was tied up, they can't possiblly understand what you think or do in such a case. My life experiences are so vast that if I tried to explain some of the things that happened in my life, they would need their shrink.
    I don't care what they learned in school, until you have experienced some of the life lessons, like shoot outs and violent beings, you really can't ask or tell anyone what to do.
    That also hold true if you are missing half your spine, or have been in a half dozen business that were sucessfull starting with a 60 dollar a week job, and owning a ferrari, 2 luxory apts, and a house on the beach, a few years later, in a society where most people tell you "you can't do that, or "that won't work". Some of us think out of the box, and no kid who finished college with a degree is capable of understanding real life changing events. i don't care how much they read.
    This crap is for very average people who lead very average lives. I know 2 Psyciatrists who re the 2 biggest low lifes I ever met. One sat in her house after the last hurricane and bought a lexus with the insurance money, then allowed the house to go into forclosure after borrowing against it, also her son is in in jail, for robberys, and she lives with a felon who she met whlie rehabbing him.
    If you want to take advice from a loser with a degree, go right ahead.
    These people never finish with their analysis, they go every week until their insurance runs out or can no longer pay, You don't know who the person is who is giving you advise. They may be a total mess, or just telling you what they read that has nothing to do with your life.
    To me it's a license to steal, unless someone is really mentally insufficient, there is no good that comes from the misconception that you can be helped in 1 hour a week, for 30 years.While som eguy is looking at his watch.
    Most times if they wait long enough the problem goes away on it's own, "unless it's manic depression or a legitamate illness". This is another product of our great country where people wo eat too much, have a disease, or bolemic people exhist, in other places these things don't exhist, they are too busy trying to make money to feed their family. Most of these made up diseases ar a product of a wealty lazy bunch of people who need to blame something or someone for their bad behavior.
    The "old timers" used to laugh at this voodo, I tend to agree.
     
  21. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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    I just retired from nearly 40 years of work as a psychologist. I also shoot a lot and will hunt and shoot as long as I am able. Psychologists, for the most part, can be enormously helpful to the mentally ill and to the average person seeking guidance about life issues. But, I understand the legitimate concern that many of you have about the confidentiality of records. That is why we must be part of the dialogue about gun legislation and "mental illness". The difficulty in defining who meets the criteria of "mentally ill" is enormous and complex. That is why most politicians seek to simply ban guns. It is intellectually lazy and fails to even mention the real problems in our society. Sadly, I have seen the field of psychology deteriorate due to the influence of PC thinking. Such intellectual laziness is dangerous and gives way to gun-ban nonsense. The practice of psychotherapy is as much art as it is science and can be contaminated and irreversibly damaged by hysterical power-hungry politicians.
     
  22. valnar

    valnar Member

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    This is the problem though. Even though a MHP may classify a particular problem as minor, it is not up to him/her to decide the fate of somebody's gun rights. And since you are required to report and document findings, it's a catch-22. The politicians should not have the right to say yay or nay on anything.
     
  23. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    This was not really on topic to begin with.
     
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