Crazy Coot
Member
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- Nov 5, 2007
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Thanks for that link! That is probably the best info I've ever read on true .380 effectiveness.
Would You Trust Your Life With A .380?
- Thread starter Crazy Coot
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That information is over 7 years old. Would I trust my life to .380 ACP Hydra-Shoks, or .380 Golden Sabers ?
No.
The .380 ACP 65gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender - Yes
The .380 ACP 90gr Hornady XTP as loaded by Precision One - Yes
BSA1
member
.380 - No.
9x18 Makarov- Yes.
The cartridge that has defended the motherland is better than the round used by the Yankees.
Ok. Just jerking some chains for fun. I have carried a .380 in the past. Currently though I have several Commie handguns in 9x18 so technically the answer is no.
9x18 Makarov- Yes.
The cartridge that has defended the motherland is better than the round used by the Yankees.
Ok. Just jerking some chains for fun. I have carried a .380 in the past. Currently though I have several Commie handguns in 9x18 so technically the answer is no.
Ibmikey
Member
You bet, normally carry a Sig P 238 or Kimber Micro with FMJ ammo, most reliable for functioning in an auto loader and deep penetration. I have put down Texas feral hogs we trapped with a single shot and they fell like a rock.
Decoy80
Member
I once had a 380 I liked to carry along with his friends too. I traded him for my lathe. best trade I ever made. Btw his replacment is a 38 derringer. He was my pony, my colt my 380 The lathe has been handy.
Hokie_PhD
Member
Exactly. Or you've never been on the wrong end of a gun with someone shooting up the place. I have and it's scary. I'm alive because I didn't listen to so called experts in the education field and instead used my martial arts training to do what was needed to stop the gunman.
Most people have no idea what it's like to be inside a building when a guns gun off. The range isn't anything like it. The noise, the smell, and the way the body reacts to time and senses.
Now how we react and how someone mentally ill or on drugs reacts is different. Hence my response to this previously.
If you have it doesn't matter what someone is holding the reality is that any gun can kill. Ballistics, bullet size, so called stopping power, etc don't matter.
Now yes being on the wrong is one thing and being on the "right" side is another. People think you'll have time to react and theyll be able to draw and get shot off. They don't account for the noise, the confusion and all that's going on in an active shooter situation.
The reality is if you trust your life to a weapon then you're putting yourself in risk. Guns fail, gunmen don't stand and wait for you to shoot them. People are screaming and running.
Things like martial arts, 3 gun and other trading help. But the reality is no one know how they'll react until they've been there.
No I know this is long. But I think it was needed to answer part of the question. And the initial question really was two, not one. The first breing trusting you life, and the second being which gun to carry.
Just about everyone here jumped into the second part without addressing the first.
Having been in a situation where I needed a gun and didn't have one due to the stupid gun free zone laws I can say I'm very lucky to be alive. Yes lucky. Training and assistance from others helped but luck played a part.
As for the second part of the question as we know that is also not as simple as it seems. Any gun is better than no gun if you train often. If you don't then pulling a 45 may or may not save your life. Likewise a 22 could or it might not.
Will a gunman stop like the one I face when confronted giving someone time to tackle him from behind? Or is he or she so out of it they won't stop until killed? Too many assume the later but don't know if the attacker will drop right away or how long until being shot.
Will they continue and grab you, shoot you?
I'm not too proud to say I was trapped in a classroom with one exit. I hate places like that as it limits options. And given the choice I'll avoid them and flee before fighting.
Yes I'll protect anyone I'm responsible for but getting out of a fight is my first choice. Next is ending the attack. And that is with surviving without being harmed. Finally just surviving is my last goal.
So to answer the second part of the question the answer is that I always carry where it's legal. I try to avoid places where I can't carry. Likewise I avoid places that don't allow me an escape route unless I have no choice.
What I carry depends on what I'm wearing, and where I'm going. In my case it's a XDS 45 or a PF9. Both of which I shoot at least once a month and both of these guns I know work and what they'll do. Ammo selection is something I'm not going to post but I will say I usually carry at least one spare magazine.
As for a 380, given the choice I decided to go 9mm and 45. But if it made sense I'd consider it. In my case it doesn't right now, but if someone is considering a 380 does the weaker caliber and more expensive ammo make sense? Will you practice and get proficient with it? Or do you think you'll just pull it out and it'll magically save your life as you somehow hit your taglrgwtvduring the confusion of an attack.
No I know this is really long and I'm sure I'm going to get flamed but having been in a real situation I hope I can help someone with what I learned in a horrible situation.
To those I've upset I ask you when was the last time you went to the range. When was the last time you trained in a realistic setting. And finally what are you doing to make yourself safer?
To everyone else I challenge you to think about all that I wrote. What can you do to be safer? To be able to help others? And to do better with the choices you've made or to make changes and make some new choices.
And yes my answer above still stands!
peacebutready
Member
In single action with fmj, yes. Placement and sufficient penetration.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
No
With the small 9s available now I would never opt for a 380.
With the small 9s available now I would never opt for a 380.
I used to feel the same way. I have a Rohrbaugh R9. At 5.2" OAL, 3.7" high and weighing in at 13.5 ounces, it is about as small and as lightweight a 9mm as there is. When I purchased it, all of the testing that I could find at the time had the .380 hollow points stopping at 10" penetration (when they expanded) and the FMJ, even truncated flat nosed rounds exiting out the back of 19" blocks.
IMO the bulk of advances in bullet technology happened in the late 80's and 90's in the wake of the Miami FBI shooting, and the calibers that benefited most and most immediately from that were .40 S&W and 9mm. Ammunition makers developed rounds in those calibers that performed well, but when it came to .380 ACP, they just scaled down the bullet design and weight, slapped the same brand label on the box and called it good. Meaning, there were Winchester .380 PDX (and other brand name) rounds out there, but Winchester just accepted that the round would only penetrate 10 inches and they assumed that anyone who purchased a .380 gun accepted that also. Few ammunition manufacturers took the knowledge they acquired when creating the 9mm rounds and applied that same methodology to creating a .380 ACP that would perform well in the FBI tests and the 4 denim protocol out of a short-barreled pocket pistol.
Then one state after another allowed concealed carry, including my own state of Illinois, and a lot of people started buying the .380 ACP for carry. In the last few years I think we've seen just the beginning of ammunition makers improving .380 bullet designs to create .380 cartridges that produce larger temporary wound channels and penetrate 14 to 18" inches in FBI and 4 x denim tests.
I recently purchased a Remington RM380. Its basically the same gun as the Rohrbaugh R9 with some modification.
I can shoot the RM380 so much more quickly than the R9, I'm just guessing but I think I can put close to 3 shots on target in the time it takes me to fire the R9, get back on target and fire again.
If the cartridge I am using is capable of traversing 14" of tissue, then I think it will punch through intervening tissue like a forearm, maybe not bone but there are trade offs. I personally feel OK about carrying a round that is capable of punching 14" deep holes in an assailant.
Maybe you don't feel comfortable with anything less than the bone-crushing capabilities of a 44 Magnum or 45+P or 10mm, and that's OK, but I do think there is something to be said about the increased controlability of the .380 round given that research and development seems to be directed now toward improving round performance.
IMO the bulk of advances in bullet technology happened in the late 80's and 90's in the wake of the Miami FBI shooting, and the calibers that benefited most and most immediately from that were .40 S&W and 9mm. Ammunition makers developed rounds in those calibers that performed well, but when it came to .380 ACP, they just scaled down the bullet design and weight, slapped the same brand label on the box and called it good. Meaning, there were Winchester .380 PDX (and other brand name) rounds out there, but Winchester just accepted that the round would only penetrate 10 inches and they assumed that anyone who purchased a .380 gun accepted that also. Few ammunition manufacturers took the knowledge they acquired when creating the 9mm rounds and applied that same methodology to creating a .380 ACP that would perform well in the FBI tests and the 4 denim protocol out of a short-barreled pocket pistol.
Then one state after another allowed concealed carry, including my own state of Illinois, and a lot of people started buying the .380 ACP for carry. In the last few years I think we've seen just the beginning of ammunition makers improving .380 bullet designs to create .380 cartridges that produce larger temporary wound channels and penetrate 14 to 18" inches in FBI and 4 x denim tests.
I recently purchased a Remington RM380. Its basically the same gun as the Rohrbaugh R9 with some modification.
I can shoot the RM380 so much more quickly than the R9, I'm just guessing but I think I can put close to 3 shots on target in the time it takes me to fire the R9, get back on target and fire again.
If the cartridge I am using is capable of traversing 14" of tissue, then I think it will punch through intervening tissue like a forearm, maybe not bone but there are trade offs. I personally feel OK about carrying a round that is capable of punching 14" deep holes in an assailant.
Maybe you don't feel comfortable with anything less than the bone-crushing capabilities of a 44 Magnum or 45+P or 10mm, and that's OK, but I do think there is something to be said about the increased controlability of the .380 round given that research and development seems to be directed now toward improving round performance.
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Mr_Flintstone
Member
I've never faced down a gunman with a 380, but i did have an opportunity to use one to save my life. I used to have a Jennings Model 48 that I carried in the woods in case I ran into snakes and such. One time I happened upon a coyote. Usually they don't come so close to people by themselves, but this one was different; maybe it was rabid, or protecting pups. I don't know, but it meant to do me in. I pulled my pistol and shot. The fmj bullet went through both sides of its skull and made a pretty good little hole in a tree not far away. Honestly, though, I wasn't aiming at its head. I went for the chest, but nerves got the best of me. Either way, the little 380 fmj did its job wonderfully.
Blacksmoke
Member
I carried a PPK/S for some years and felt well armed. Three rounds should be enough to convince a bad guy he made a bad decision. Then again, I was not expecting heavily armed terrorists just some thug creeping up on me.
Panzerschwein
member
The 9x18mm is basically a hotter .380. I carry it as my primary in a Makarov. It does the job. I believe in one's placementation of the shots.
JohnBiltz
Member
I will point out that thread that is linked is dated 2009 and is out of date.
JohnBiltz
Member
I'm not sure there is more performance to squeeze out of a .380. The simple truth is its not a high performance round. It only has so much energy and that energy can only push a bullet of so much diameter through so much flesh. If it expands much above .46 then it can't push it deep enough. Short of +P loads I don't expect much more out of it.
Hokie_PhD
Member
Yes they look tiny compared to the huge 45 ACP
Someone more experienced than me can tell you how to practice.
IMHO the key is to practice, know how the gun feels and shoots. Know how accurate it is and get comfortable with it
Armored farmer
Member
I think the key to having faith in a .380 is to practice with one.
Often.
About once per week I draw, shoot 5, reload, shoot 2.
Often.
About once per week I draw, shoot 5, reload, shoot 2.
huntsman
Member
I don't know when I see the .380 and .45 acp standing side by side I see symmetry, JMB father of both cartridges must have seen it also. One cartridge is for a personal SD firearm and the other is for a sidearm, no need to make it more complicated than was intended.
TomJ
Contributing Member
I know many of you are familiar with the testing Lucky Gunner did. For those of you who aren't, I attached the link. It has some good information regarding the performance of many of the common SD rounds.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP
Hangingrock
Member
Having the ability to observe what is in use at three different shooting range facilities, I have not witnessed an extensive usage of the .380 being employed. I thought I would see the .380 more often in use at an indoor facility as there are more male/female couples engaged in target shooting. Not so much.
BSA1
member
No.
The human head is a small target and actually well armored. The forehead is rounded which helps to cause the bullet to deflect. The lower part of the face such as the mouth, jaws, teeth as not vital parts that will cause the body nervous system to shut down quickly. The Spinal Column is narrow and protected by the neck muscles.
Train to shoot the same way you do with your 1911. A friend and I own the exact same guns in 9x18. (I sold him my first one and then brought another one for myself). He carries JHP's in his gun as he believes in expansion for stopping power. I carried FMJ's as I believe in deeper penetration to make sure I reach the vitals.
Both of us are comfortable with our ammunition choices and feel equally well armed.
BSA1
member
The .380 (and 9x18, 32) are severely limited in velocity due to their use in blowback action handguns. In addition it is further handicapped by it's use in short barrels common for pocket and conceal carry.
FBI standard is 12" to 18" penetration in calibrated ballistic gel. Getting 16" to 18" of penetration and good expansion from a 3" barrel gun is quite a challenge for this cartridge.
Mr_Flintstone
Member
I think 380 is a round that would benefit greatly from a commercially available spoon-tip ammunition. I don't mean Underwood Extreme Defender or Polycase ARX which are pretty good. I mean a full weight 90 grain with a spoon cast in the tip causing it to tumble upon entry.
Mr_Flintstone
Member
Just practice hitting what you aim at. A head shot is usually one of the quickest ways to incapacitate, but doesn't always present itself as the best option. As I mentioned earlier, nerves (physical reactions to the stress of the situation) often cause cause you to miss what you aim at; or not shoot at all. It is far more likely to be the limiting factor in a life-and-death self defense situation than the caliber of gun you choose to use. But, that being said, head, chest, and spine are the quickest routes to disabling a threat.
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