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would you use you weapon to defend others?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by PALEFACE, Mar 22, 2004.

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  1. PALEFACE

    PALEFACE Member

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    i have thought about this question allot lately. 2 yrs ago i would have said yes, now im not so sure. my weapon is for my protection as well as my family and friends, why should i put my arse on the line for someone who probly hates guns and wouldn't hesatate to point a finger at me. now if their we're children or women involved i guess i would. in the end im still not sure if i would or wouldn't. i haven't been in a situation like that but if i find myself in one i hope and pray that i make the right decision.
     
  2. Kodiak AK

    Kodiak AK Member

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    why should i put my arse on the line for someone who probly hates guns and wouldn't hesatate to point a finger at me. Because compassion seperates us from the animals.

    I have never shot anyone , but I have used weapons to defend others in the past . Sometimes it was to my own detriment ,sometimes it wasn't . In the end I never asked for thanx from any one elese . I only cared about wheither I could live with my self if I looked the other way .
     
  3. PALEFACE

    PALEFACE Member

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    i don't think i could look the other way either and that is what pisses me off:fire: makes me feel like im pigeon holed. every good person should own a firearm so we wouldn't have to risk our freedom.
     
  4. ChickenHawk

    ChickenHawk Member

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    How often we read about people who witness crimes [/B]in progress[/B] (including muggings, rapes, robbery) and simply look away because they don't want to get involved.

    I've never had to do it (and hope I never have to) but I don't know how I'd live with myself if I saw someone in jeopardy and thought I had a chance to do do something about it but elected not to.

    The main consideration for me is that I'd give some quick-but-serious thought to whether I thought my intervention would (1) save the life of the person in question and (2) not sacrifice mine.

    Obviously anything can happen, but I'd have to at least feel like I had a really good chance to meet those criteria. If so, I don't know how I could turn my back.

    Cheers,
    ChickenHawk
     
  5. Whitey

    Whitey member

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    Absolutely.
     
  6. rich2u

    rich2u Member

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    Well we bloody well saved France from the Nazi buggers so I guess I would have to say I would go to bat for a fellow american..
     
  7. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    As ever - every situation would be different. Let's say ''I'd rather not'' ... but that really is academic. That's just the ''I ain't lookin for trouble'' deal.

    If I were in a stop and rob and a guy came in .. threatened the clerk or worse still took a shot ...... then what? You just watch? No - in that situation I would have no choice but to respond. Technically my life and that of anyone elses in the store is at risk ... even if I have not been directly threatened (yet!).

    Bottom line ... any situation .. you play it as you see it ... and hope to heck you get it right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  8. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    As stupid as it might sound I think I would help out. Of course thier are situations where I would not such as two drunk guy fighting, or other situations where it is hard to tell who the victim is. When I did my training they told me over and over that "you are not a jr policemen" I would only step in if I was scared for their life.
     
  9. Kodiak AK

    Kodiak AK Member

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    sturmruger Of course thier are situations where I would not such as two drunk guy fighting
    I had to do that so many times bouncing it doesn't realy phase me anymore.
    I spent a lot of time scraping as a youth . I don't go looking for trouble anymore . People can talk crap to me left and right and I will just walk away from it .Sometimes realy don't have a choice , and when "it is on"it is on.
     
  10. DadOfThree

    DadOfThree Member

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    Stopping some slimeball now may very well be protecting your friends and family in the future. If he gets away now he will look for another target very soon.
     
  11. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Yep, I couldn't watch someone else die or get seriously hurt when I had the power to stop it. Their veiws on guns, protection and gratitude are also irrelevant. Of course the drunk on drunk caveat goes for me as well, though I would keep it from goin' lethal perhaps...
     
  12. Heraclitus

    Heraclitus Member

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    I wouldn't know until I've been there.

    Oh yeah, I might say something like "Sure, I'll get involved," but so many variables come into play that I cannot say with absolute certainty whether or not it will happen. I never imagined myself, for example, performing CPR on the victim of a massive heart attack; until a co-worker of mine had one. Everyone else in the office stood there -- petrified, glassy-eyed, stunned. There were two or three wonder-boys in the room. You know the type: "just do it" jocks that are always larger than life until SHTF. Well, they were conclusively "out to lunch". That's when I realized it was all up to me. But I'm not bragging in any way here. I still wish it had never happened. It was a very awkward, nerve-racking, and surreal experience. And I am sure that a situation such as you describe it is hardly any different; even when a stranger is involved.

    So nobody knows what will happen until it happens. All you can do is prepare yourself to the best of your ability. And prepare you must.

    We'll see what happens when the time comes.



    Regards,

    ~ Heraclitus
     
  13. Josey

    Josey member

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    I have been TOO involved in armed robberies/smash and grabs, more than once. In one the BG was pistol whipping the manager. What did I do? I got the customers and employees out of the store. I was watching out for more than one BG. The manager got some bruises and his ego bent. I acted in the defense of others by evacuating the store. I recently engaged a smash and grab BG. I was not out to pay Wyatt Earp. He was interfering in my warning and herding people to safer positions.
     
  14. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Been there, done that, good conclusion. Probably saved the life of what turned out to be an innocent party.

    BUT THERE'S TWO KEY GROUND RULES!

    1) "Never get between two parties who still want a piece of each other." Also known as the "don't fight a war on two fronts" rule. In these cases, be a good witness, get bystanders under cover/away where feasable...and in SOME cases, you'll be able to wait until there IS a conclusion and then step in and save a downed party from being "finished off".

    This is all about the difference between a "fight" and an "assault in progress". Be aware of the huge difference!

    2) Make DAMNED SURE you know who is who before using deadly force!!!

    Example: you walk onto a train and there's four guys pounding the crap out of a downed party. Guess what? The downed party may have "had it coming" - for all you know, he's a mass murderer they just jumped and took a machete away from! But he's down, he's bleeding from the head and unable to even cover up, and clearly has no more fight left in him.

    My solution was to avoid drawing a weapon, push the four off the guy then retreat with him, and then verbally challenge. The downed party passed out behind me, and the four made it 100% clear they were the aggressors. (Trust me on this! The bloody hammers were a big clue, their words and attitudes even moreso.) THAT is when they got to see my hand clearly on a "megafolder" class knife...and thankfully, they backed down.

    Look, you see a basic beat-down and shout out "hey, what the hell is going on here?" you're going to get one of two answers:

    1) "This guy tried to steal my wife's purse" or similar - your answer is "hey cool, you caught 'em, I'll call 911, hold the barsterd!" or similar. Get 'em calmed down a bit.

    2) If the guys on top are the baddies, they'll turn on you. Verbally at a minimum but if they're screaming at YOU they're not pounding somebody into the pavement. If they turn on you physically, it's self defense and we're prepped for that - right?

    (Another thing: if you see people kick, stomp or gang-pound a downed party, THAT IS DEADLY FORCE in all 50 states. Know what that means? If they verbally threaten you, you KNOW they're willing to use deadly force on people because you just saw them do it to somebody else. So my admittedly legally-untrained-opinion is, pull your gun (or in my case, knife). You're dealing with known attempted murderers.

    This sort of verbal challenge to ongoing crime is NOT ILLEGAL - not anywhere in the US as far as I know, certainly not in California. In the incident I ran into, cops took a full statement (happened near a transit PD substation) and not only let me go with no charges, they gave me my knife back on the way out of the station. (They thanked me for not using it, I explained that I was very glad it wasn't necessary.)

    Remember those two rules, you'll be fine.
     
  15. Heraclitus

    Heraclitus Member

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    Well put, Jim March. I couldn't have said it better myself when I made the observation that "so many variables come into play [that getting involved is not necessarily something one is apt to label with the name of reflex]". One cannot just dive in -- or run away -- without first gleaning a bit of critical information from the scene. And then your take on it might be affected by any number of unpredictables.

    Training is our only recourse. We must prepare for the unexpected and learn to embrace it. That doesn't guarantee that we'll make the right decision when the time comes, but... we can't afford not to decide.
     
  16. PATH

    PATH Member

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    Only when deadly physical force was being used or about to be used against somebody. If my family is with me I will get them to safety first.
     
  17. Whitey

    Whitey member

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    If I'm in a store and that happens to a clerk, I'll pull my .45 and start shooting up the joint, killing anyone in the way. People be damned! One of those shots are bound to hit the bad guy.































































    Just kidding. :neener: Good advice Mr. March.
     
  18. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I did. I'd rather not do so again, but the right thing to do remains the right thing to do whether I like it or not.
     
  19. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Another point: be aware of the concept of "continuum of force"...which in police tactics goes something like:

    1) Verbal challenge. This IS force and if done for the PURPOSE of picking a fight makes you the 'bad guy" if things escalate. In other words: insults/threats bad, asking what the heck is going on good.

    (Also: avoid anger, it clouds judgement and will "emotionally load" your words - it will turn your proper challenge into a threat just by tone of voice, and ensure a fight where there might otherwise not be one. Your verbal challenge should be determined, but not angry - too many cops screw this point up. If you're acting to help somebody else OR defend your own life, you're acting out of concern for human life, NOT anger. If you have even a trace of bigotry in your soul, you're not ready to get involved in a thing like this, OK? And that includes homophobia. I didn't mention it above, but the four guys pounding away on the downed party were transvestites. It made things strange, but I can honestly say it didn't "enrage me" or similar.)

    2) Physical control without use of pain/infliction of damage. Pushing somebody, pulling them away from a downed party are both examples of this "light physical force". When I pushed the four nutcases off the downed party, I was operating at this level - they weren't harmed and weren't knocked off their feet. It MUST be justifiable after the fact, not something you do on a whim even though it's low-level force - done for improper reasons, it'll start a fight and now YOU are the aggressor and in deep doodoo if things go all the way to deadly force.

    3) Hard physical force (punches, kicks, serious arm-locks, throws/tripping). Pepper spray is also considered to be at this level, and Air Tasers. You don't do this without SERIOUS justification. When I entered the train, although I saw the guy down and getting stomped, I didn't go straight to this level. Whether I could have or not legally speaking is...well, a bit of an open question but probably - BUT it wouldn't have been smart. And I think you can make a strong case that if the prior level was adequate, that's what you go with. (NOTE: cops and trained security guards can use batons at this level so long as they avoid overhead blows to the head and all spine hits. Beanbag shotguns also work at this level but again, only in trained uniformed hands.)

    4) Deadly force.

    ------------------------------

    This "spectrum of force" is designed to help make decisions and establish the legal and moral basis for going further up the scale.

    In the situation on the train I've been talking about, I started at #2 due to the high violence levels already being committed, then backed it down to verbal, then they scaled it all the way to coming REAL close to deadly force (pulled out hammers and waved 'em around). This sort of thing happens. There ARE situations where due to the aggressor's action, you START with deadly force...like where some guy walks into a public place and starts laying down fire.

    In other words: understand these principles in detail, but be flexible too - the REAL point is: use as little force as is necessary to rationally protect human life.
     
  20. Atticus

    Atticus Member

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    "Example: you walk onto a train and there's four guys pounding the crap out of a downed party. Guess what? The downed party may have "had it coming" - for all you know, he's a mass murderer they just jumped and took a machete away from! But he's down, he's bleeding from the head and unable to even cover up, and clearly has no more fight left in him."

    Good point Jim.

    I witnessed a real life example of this. I was grocery shopping (Florida- 1984) when a very bloodied man ran down the aisle toward me, with two shirtless, long-haired, tattooed, bikers in pursuit. As the guy ran past me two more bikers came from the other direction and the guy was trapped. They proceeded to beat him into unconsciousness. They did stop when he hit the floor, and then they asked the store employees to call the cops. It turned out that the guy was a nutcase or real drunk or both. He had been sitting at the bar next door and had suddenly pulled a knife and started stabbing folks. The "fight" in the store happened so fast that I would not have reacted even if I had been packing. That experience proved to me that circumstances may be far different from how they appear...and that these events can unfold VERY VERY quickly.
     
  21. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    And it is just that which concerns me greatly. Time for thought and decision-making is or can be VERY limited.

    Not sure if there is any way to ever know it all quick enough. In one case you could stand by and watch a homicide go down ... in another you could see a perp get his just deserts. Makes you think .... just how long do or can you wait? Obviously as long as possible, but when blood is already flowing .. geez ..... pray for divine intervention?! :p

    No wonder I want to stay clear of trouble!:p
     
  22. SodiumBenzoate

    SodiumBenzoate Member

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    I believe that, in some places at least, kicking someone in the head (ANYWHERE on the head) is considered deadly force.
     
  23. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    Yes. No. Maybe. It depends....

    That is as straight an answer as I can honestly give until put in a specific situation. WHo or the "others"? What is my risk? What is the risk of the "others"?

    Can't say. Ask me in 40 years and hopefully I still won't have an answer for you.

    Smoke
     
  24. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    If I felt I could handle the situation, I would. Otherwise, I'd try to make my way to safety. Family and friends are another issue. Never know what you will do, though.
     
  25. yy

    yy Member

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    got 'tagged' by a child with gun (kid lesss than 12 years old) in traffic

    Besides the *** reaction

    What could I have done? Nothing before the act, :uhoh: nothing during the act, "what" and nothing after the act. :cuss:

    I probably related this story here already, but here it is again:

    I'm in traffic, stopped at a red light. A tiny lanky kid walks up to my open window and ambushes me with his cap gun. The only reaction I could think of in that split second was to "shoot" back with my fingers and yelling "gotcha first"


    No I wasn't armed at the time. This was in Los Angeles.

    I couldn't have shot him if I were armed anyways. He didn't look threatening. In fact, he may have zoomed in on me because i was condition orange. Saw him walk over and made eye contact early.

    I only hope that alarms would have gone off in my head if this kid had a real .22 pistol. Otherwise I'd let an armed person into my safety zone. It would have been a successful ambush. (this argues for getting a surplus body armor)

    I couldn't scold him properly anyways because he just walked off while I was sitting in traffic.


    What could I have done? What should I have done? What would *you* do?


    ps I felt too inhibited to stop traffic, leave my car, go after the kid, and chew him out for playing this game.
     
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