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Wrinco Ring-Out

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by 1911Tuner, Sep 24, 2004.

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  1. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Daylight came with me standin' on the line waitin' for it to get light enough to see the steel targets. The Nork was gettin' antsy to get started. The sun peeked over the trees, and the shootin' commenced. 750 rounds later, I had a sore hand and a dirty pistol....a dirty functioning pistol. This, in spite of the fact that it had gobbled up everything that I could throw at it...save one round that refused to go into battery until I cleared the pistol and tried it again from the magazine. It was a 200-grain commercially cast
    SWC with 6.5 grains of Unique providing the push. I chalked it up to a
    bad round, since it didn't repeat for the remaining 200 rounds I had.
    Extractor tension was set at the beginning of the test due to feeling a little excessive.

    The ammo lineup:

    Federal 230-grain Hydra-Shok...50 rounds

    Remington 230-grain Golden Saber...50 rounds

    PMC 230-grain Hardball...100 rounds

    TFR 200-grain hard cast SWC/6.5 Unique...200 rounds

    TFR 230-grain home cast round nose/5.0 Red Dot...200 rounds

    TFR 230-grain RNJ/6.5 Unique...150 rounds
    _____________________

    The magazine lineup:

    A mixture of Metalforms, USGI contract magazines with unaltered feed lips, and factory Colt magazines, marked both "C" and "M" on the base plate with Wolff 11-pound springs. All magazines were 7-round capacity,
    and of course...they had Browning's Ingenious Dimple on the followers.

    The hollowpoints started the show. Rapid-fired at about one round per second without letting the slide lock between mag changes produced no malfunctions. The slide locked at the 50-round mark and the next lot began. The pistol was allowed to cool for 5 minutes.

    The lot of 200-grain lead reloads rapid-fired produced one malfunction at roughly the half-way mark which didn't repeat. The pistol was allowed to cool for 5 minutes at the end of each 100-round mark.

    100 rounds of 230 RNJ/Unique was fired as fast as I could pull the trigger,
    and the gun went into the water to cool. 50 rounds of the same lot was fired limp-wristed with the gun cradled on my hand with just my thumb and the crook of my index finger providing support. No malfunctions occured. Rate of fire was app. one round per 2 seconds. The gun was allowed to cool completely while I picked up brass and reloaded the magazines.

    The remaining 200 rounds of 230-grain RN lead reloaded ammo was fired
    at the rate of one round per 2-3 seconds at the falling plate machine at
    15 yards. The gun will shoot tighter than I can...but I managed to eke out
    around an 85% hit/miss ratio. The gun wasn't allowed to run dry until the last round of the last magazine, at which point it failed to lock on empty. Seven PMC factory rounds, fired one round at a time produced seven slidelocks, and I chalked it up to a fluke...The gun was pretty hot and dirty by this time.

    At the conclusion of the test, the gun was detail-stripped for cleaning and inspection. No sign of iminent parts failure was apparent, and the extractor tension held it's setting...going strictly by feel. This marked approximately 1400-1500 rounds without cleaning or oiling the gun since I've owned it. Not too shabby for the fairly tight slide/frame fit that it has.
    The gun was oiled with FP-10 and reassembled. (Thanks to 19112XS for sending me the FP-10. Good stuff!)

    Finally, the remaining rounds in the lot of PMC were used slow-fire, one-handed at steel B-27 type targets at 25 yards...All hits and no malfunctions. The pistol was shot dry on each magazine and the slide locked every time.

    Stand by for the next chapter in the ongoing 'Rinco Test in which 1,000
    rounds of TFR lead 230-grain/Red Dot will go downrange in one session without any attempt to clean or oil the gun until the end of the string.
    My money is on the Nork...


    Cheers all!

    Tuner
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2004
  2. Silent Bob

    Silent Bob Member

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    Tuner, with your recent Norinco postings you have me very interested in these guns. I've been doing some internet research, reading up on anything to do with Norincos and I happened to find this. I don't know who this guy is, if he is a gunsmith or what, but he has a less than favorable review of the Norinco pistol, and its parts. I was curious to see what you thought of his findings:

    http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Technical Details/Norinco M1911A
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2004
  3. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    BTT

    Howdy Bob! Here's round one.
     
  4. BigG

    BigG Member

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    Howdy Tuner! Sounds like the ole Ringo would do ole Moses proud were he here to see his chile. :cool:
     
  5. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    John's Chile

    BigG said:

    Sounds like the ole Ringo would do ole Moses proud were he here to see his chile.
    ___________________

    Betcha he'd say..."Word! Thass whut'm talkin' 'bout!":D
     
  6. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    Great report.

    Your hand must be made of leather to shoot that many rounds with the mil-spec frame. ;) That's a lot of rounds regardless!

    How does the Nork compare to the Springer so far in your test concerning malfunctions, accuracy, etc...if you have a feel for the difference yet?

    Thanks
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Leather Hands

    Howdy 45Auto,

    I installed a King's drop-in beavertail grip safety for the torture test,a flat mainspring housing, and I used Colt hard rubber stocks...so my tender little mitt wouldn't be all owee. I wanted to torture the gun...not me!
    :D

    In comparison...the Springfield is/was better overall in fit and finish than the Norinco, and *probably* a little more accurate. Although this particular Norinco has a little tighter slide to frame fit than average, the Springfield was tighter, and actually required a slurry lap to get the slide to move as smoothly as I like. After that little chore, it feels as smooth as buttered glass. The Norinco still has that "Rough-Hewn" quality about it...but not enough to keep me from buying and carrying one. After upgrading the GI Springer with GI parts in place of the MIM stuff, I'd put it almost on a par with the Nork for durability...Almost. The Norinco still has that uber-tough slide and frame which would probably put it in the lead for long-term hard use.
     
  8. Brian D.

    Brian D. Member

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    My longest-owned 'Rinco has gone through a similar one day test with flying colors, Tuner, so your results are no surprise to me. Total round count on mine is approaching 20,000 rounds(!) and nothin' has busted or wore out yet. Well, okay, I've changed a few springs, you folks know what I meant! ;)
     
  9. wally

    wally Member

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    Glad to see you like 'em hot same as me :)

    Every "new" manual and Alliant's web site would suggest these are overloads. But I've been shooting them for ~20 years without problems and have some brass that's been thru guns at least thirty times -- I load 'em until I lose 'em or the case splits. Although the rims can get pretty rough which doesn't help reliabilty.

    Most of my lead SWC failures in the "All Cast" Charles Daly EMS I've got close to 2500 rounds thru are like you describe. Clear, re-insert into the mag and its fine next time. I suspect its a rough spot on the rim lining up just wrong or a bit of mould-mark spru lining up and binding at the top of the chamber. I get this 2-4 times a box with my CD (although a batch of 200 with slighly shorter OAL was 100%) and almost never with my Kimber, Colts, or Norinco.


    Just a heads up, Alliant has somewhat recently changed Unique to a "new cleaner buring" formula. I've not loaded any of it yet as I'm nearing the end of my last 8-lb can of old stock. I plan to drop down to 6.0 gr when I switch to the new & improved just to be on the safe side initially.

    --wally.
     
  10. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Some Like it Hot

    wally said:

    Glad to see you like 'em hot same as me.
    ____________________

    Howdy wally,

    I've noticed that a lot of the load data publishers have gotten conservative over the years. Find an old Lyman manual and take a gander at the specs
    for a 240-grain cast bullet in a .44 mag with Hercules 2400 if ya doubt that...:what: :D It's 3-4 grains hotter than what you'll find in any of the recent manuals. I've got one here that lists Elmer Keith's heavy .44 Special load of a 250-grain cast SWC and 18 grains of 2400. Not for the faint of heart or lightly-built revolvers, I assure ya. One fool that I know fired that load in a Charter Bulldog...It took about 50 rounds to loosen the gun up...bad! I shot it a few times, and the recoil was worse than a top-end magnum load in one of the old 35-ounce Smith & Wesson Mountain Revolvers...and those were a handful.

    6.5 grains of Unique/230 has been a long-standing "Hardball Equivalent"
    load, although some guns will clock around 860-870 fps with that one,
    and 5 grains of Red Dot with a cast 230 gunerally runs to about 830 in most of my pistols...and about 800 with a jacketed bullet. As with any top-end load...6.5 grains of Unique should be approached instead of just setting the measure and trusting to blind faith. I don't know of any 1911
    pattern pistol in good shape that would kaboom with that load, but unless all is well with locking lug engagement and other specs, it won't do'em any good either. That one's right on the peg for most pistols.

    Red Dot is the near-twin of Bullseye in burn rate charactistics, and the data can *usually* be used interchangeably in .45 ACP. It just doesn't meter as well. I like it because it's more bulky than Bullseye, and a double charge will overfill the case...which Bullseye won't do. 10 grains of Bullseye is highly likely to wreck a gun that's not in really good shape. It probably won't blow it up...but it can do a lot of damage. I can live with a little less accuracy in exchange for less chance of a double charge. Some of my girls
    are gettin' a bit long in the tooth.:cool:
     
  11. Atticus

    Atticus Member

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    That's the first negative write up I've seen on the Norinco. Maybe he has a lemon...but then a $300 lemon is something you can work with.

    A short list of those who give a thumbs up to Norincos

    1) 1911Tuner
    2) Wilson Combat
    3) Clark Custom



    http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm#faq

    FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
    Q:What 1911 pistols do you consider the best platform for the 460 Rowland Kit?
    A: The best candidates for this kit are single stack Kimber, Colt, Springfield Armory and Norinco 1911 style 45 ACP semi-auto pistols.
     
  12. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

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    Howdy Tuner. That's good work with the Rinco.


    Silent Bob, that post was 10 years ago. That may have been true with an early model, but it is not the norm. Rincos shoot like a house afire for sure.
     
  13. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    re: 'Rincos

    BrianD said:

    > your results are no surprise to me. Total round count on mine is approaching 20,000 rounds(!) and nothin' has busted or wore out yet. <

    Wowser! Ya mean none of them soft parts wore out? Who woulda thunkit?:D
    _________________

    Silent Bob!

    I don't know who the guy is either, but if he can't tell a casting from machined steel, he ain't been smithin' long. Maybe a kitchen-table tinkerer
    who bought a sear jig and figured out how to take the gun apart...

    Yes...The Norincos are a little rough around the edges. They have deep tool marks in various places, but they don't seem to affect function. He's right on about the finish work at the rear of the frame...Minor stuff if you
    can use a scrape and a sanding drum on a Dremel.

    The bushing fit to the slide and barrel runs a little looser than I like...but I've never seen nearly the amount that he claims in the 50-odd pistols that I've looked at, and the slide lugs and slots are pretty much dead on and to spec in all the ones that I've had down.

    The triggers aren't good as they come out of the box, for sure...but I don't think they'll hit the 10-pound mark. At least, none that I've seen. Most run about 6 or 7 with some grittiness...but I've seen/felt worse. The first Norinco that I bought had a pretty bad trigger...worse than average. It took about 30 minutes to clean it up and I was able to get a smooth, clean trigger that broke at 5.5 pounds...and I didn't have to cut the hammer hooks short or square to get it. No bending on the sear spring or a lighter mainspring either. A stock Colt sear spring with no tweaking helped it a lot. The stock Nork sear springs are pretty bad. Prep work was mainly all it took. When the former owner pulled the trigger the next time I saw him, he was sick, and wanted to buy the gun back...but it was too late. I said------>:neener: MY 'Rinco!
     
  14. shep854

    shep854 Member

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    What??? No Wolf?:confused:
     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Woof!

    Shep asked:

    What??? No Wolf?
    ___________________

    I wanna test the gun...not wreck it!:neener:
     
  16. 19112XS

    19112XS Member

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    The testins seems pretty comprehensive. Glad the FP-10 is working for you. Sounds like you need it. One question, is it fast enough in cleaning the bore?
     
  17. wally

    wally Member

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    When my all cast parts Charles Daly (made by Armscor) hits 3000 rnds (about 2500 now) I'll take it apart, clean it real good and post photos of the innards so 1911Tuner can point out where the ~2500 rnds of Wolf have "ruined" it :)

    --wally.
     
  18. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    2500 and countin'

    wally said:

    >so 1 911Tuner can point out where the ~2500 rnds of Wolf have "ruined" it<
    ___________________

    Well...It might just make 2500 without a burp, wally...but #2501 might bring it all to a screechin' halt. See...I don't form opinions on things like that based on one occurrence or one story. I hear the stories and investigate.

    I guess I could go into all the squibs and 20% overcharges and oversized and undersized and out of round bullets( by as much as .002 inch) that I've found...by buyin' up a few boxes from different lots and pullin'em apart...but I won't. Far be it from me to bust your bubble, mah brother.
    Shoot'em if ya got'em...but that ol Big bad Wolf is gonna bite sooner or later.:p
     
  19. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I think that Wolf ammunition is an excellent choice of ammunition to use in a Charles Daly ...
     
  20. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Excellent Ammo

    ROFLMAO!! Fuff stoppit! Ya made me spit Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard!!!
     
  21. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Again .....:neener:
     
  22. silent one

    silent one Member

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    OHHH OHHHH !!!

    Do I sense another Tuner, Old Fuff, fire fight comin on. ? :uhoh:




    SILENT ONE
     
  23. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Of course not ....

    Tuner is too busy trying to find his SCUBA stuff and fit his dogs out with water-wings before the next big storm hits ...

    He'll be back, but a bit damp around the ears ....:neener: :neener:
     
  24. silent one

    silent one Member

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    Say old fuff,

    I don't think the water will affect Tuner. He most likely hooked up with his buddy duck foot, and has his flippers on. Knowing him, he probably has a Springer in one hand, and the Norinco in the other, just to see which one will fire the most rounds under water. You know how he enjoys being dramatic, and pulling off stunts no one else would ever think of doing. :D :what: We'll be standin by for his under water range report.:D


    SILENT ONE
     
  25. RugerOldArmy

    RugerOldArmy Member

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    Tuner: We need a 'rinco pic. What did this sucker cost you? (Please convert the yen to $)
     
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