WSJ article about guns, rights & some changing attitudes in Europe

[skeptical_in_Ohio]

Hi all-

Sorry in advance for length and about posting a link to an article with a paywall (if you've already used up the limit this month). If you've not been to the site you should be good to see it at least once.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/gun-use-surges-in-europe-where-firearms-are-rare-11546857000

The article, "Gun Use Surges in Europe, Where Firearms Are Rare: Growing insecurity spurs more people to clear high bars for ownership" notes that firearm usage, both by bad actors and by honest citizens (e.g., for self defense, despite high legal barriers) is increasing.

At least one person in Germany is mentioned as having a blog where she advocates for armed self defense.

Some notable quotes (at least to me):

"Strict registration requirements don’t account for—and may exacerbate—a surge in illegal weapons across the continent, experts say." I found this an interesting statement with a possible double-entendre. You make something illegal and you get more illegal behavior. Yup. Makes sense.

Another one that seems self-evident to me, from a gun range owner in Belgium: “With each terror attack, the legislation gets stricter,” he said. “For the black market, everything stays the same.”

And my favorite - for the irony, from somebody named Nils Duquet of the Flemish Peace Institute, a Belgian research center.

“It’s clear that illegal guns are used mostly by criminals,” he said.

Everybody have a blessed and happy day.

 

[JONWILL]

"It's clear that illegal gun are used mostly by criminals," he said

No crap. I wonder how much grant money he used to come to that conclusion. Probably took him a year and $500k

I could have told them that over a beer at the local pub. 1 minute and Cost $3

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

"It's clear that illegal guns are used mostly by criminals"...
How do you say "duh" in Flemish..?

 

[skeptical_in_Ohio]

"It's clear that illegal guns are used mostly by criminals"...
How do you say "duh" in Flemish..?

As I indicated in my original post, I concur with the sentiment of this post. However, I did some thinking, and it seems that if more and more stuff becomes illegal, then it's either by definition that if you use a firearm you're a criminal (100%), or it's possible that some small percentage of those who use an "illegal" gun are actually not criminals (at least until they used the gun, say, for self-defense), or maybe he meant "career criminals". Hence, that statement isn't as asinine as it might originally seem (admittedly I'm reaching here).

OK. Now I have a headache, but hopefully that made some sense...

A happy and blessed day to all.

 

[AlexanderA]

“It’s clear that illegal guns are used mostly by criminals,” he said.

They may be used mostly by criminals, but illegal guns are not necessarily owned only by criminals. I know that in Greece, a lot of otherwise law-abiding people have guns in contravention of the official restrictions. All that unenforceable restrictions do is increase contempt for the law in general. In Greece, people don't bother to fight the laws they don't like. They just ignore them.

 

[George Dickel]

In the US there was more alcohol consumed per person during prohibition than before or after. My sister-in-law's husband, who is german, is very pro gun but doesn't want to deal with the requirements and cost to own a gun in Germany. My german brother-in-law has no interest in guns but has no problem with other Germans owning them. Of the germans I know through my time in the army and through my wife's family, there aren't many that are anti gun, just indifferent towards them. Their media is just like ours, they paint anything gun as evil and should be banned.

 

[Labguy47]

If I where in Europe and worried about home safety I would build a shotgun.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I once attended a lecture where the speaker gave an overwhelming argument that governments were the chief sponsor of black markets. Through the use of regulation, laws, and taxation they interfere with the normal commerce between peoples which then makes ordinary citizens (or subjects in the case of most European countries) criminals. After I gave it some thought I completely concur if you are speaking of the conduct of normal law abiding individuals.

 

[Speedo66]

"It's clear that illegal gun are used mostly by criminals," he said

No crap. I wonder how much grant money he used to come to that conclusion. Probably took him a year and $500k

I could have told them that over a beer at the local pub. 1 minute and Cost $3

$3 beer, must be nice. Even the dive bars cost more than that here.

Unless you have multiple degrees, academic standing, and have published, nobody in power or the media will accept what you say as true, including inane statements such as this.

 

[StationOps]

Alcohol consumption decreased during prohibition. https://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/opinion/actually-prohibition-was-a-success.html

 

[MidRoad]

"It's clear that illegal guns are used mostly by criminals"...
How do you say "duh" in Flemish..?

Prounces alot like a cough/throat clearing.

 

[Slamfire]

Europe is undergoing a tremendous amount of turmoil due to demographics. The fertility rate of the people we could call “ethnic” Europeans is such that the population of Europeans is declining. Depopulation is particularly bad in Eastern Europe.





https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/09/european-demographics-aging-employment-migration/540084/

Governments are allowing mass movements of immigrants, to make up the difference, These people have different customs, languages, and religions. Humans are very tribal in nature and don’t necessarily consider the culture they came from, as bad. It was a real shocker to the Dutch to find out that their Muslim immigrants consider the “tolerant”, “secular” Dutch society to be immoral and decadent. Those Europeans with rapidly decreasing populations are very concerned what will happen when the “immigrant” population hits 51% . In a democratic society, 51% is enough to change the laws of the county. And then, terrorist mass shooting, by men out of these immigrant groups, is not helping things.

I had buds who went on travel in Germany and reported seeing Burka wearing women in the streets. I wonder how the Germans feel about that. Anyway, the massive influx of immigrants, the decline of the middle class, and more factors, is causing a lot of uncertainty in the Europe and many are all trying to figure out how they are going to survive the future, given all the change.

 

[Ignition Override]

A few of those "ladies" wearing burkas could easily be wanted terrorists. What an easy way to hide, with a tiny bit of female eye make-up to add the right touch for a man.

Men or women could easily smuggle some Semtex (plastic Czecho-) explosives under burkas, and probably do so quite often going across the many open borders, somewhere in the Eurozone.

Take a rifle out to the refrigerator-sized Peugeot or VW Passat? Just do the "rifle in a black burka", frumpy "duck waddle" out to the car after sundown, in Moelenbeek, Brussels or Marseilles.

Remember that very few of "them" were allowed recently into Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia or Hungary. Maybe they actually want to protect their citizens, and never forgot what happened during the Ottoman invasions hundreds of years ago-or the hundreds killed by Middle Eastern terrorists (1st or 2nd generation) using trucks, bombs or guns in Berlin, Brussels Airport, Paris, London, Spain etc.

 

[Steve S.]

Now we can relate to what the American Indian must have felt like when they were invaded by immigrants.

 

[MedWheeler]

AlexanderA writes:

They may be used mostly by criminals, but illegal guns are not necessarily owned only by criminals. I know that in Greece, a lot of otherwise law-abiding people have guns in contravention of the official restrictions. All that unenforceable restrictions do is increase contempt for the law in general. In Greece, people don't bother to fight the laws they don't like. They just ignore them.

I get what you're saying, but the mere act of deliberately owning a prohibited item does, in fact, make one a criminal. As was mentioned, that might have played into some interpretations of this idea:

You make something illegal and you get more illegal behavior.

But, yeah, I agree with whoever above who said that it was likely meant to mean that other criminal activity associated with firearms was on the rise.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Steve: Not such a good comparison. If you are a student of history you would know that the various tribes were busy killing each other before the Europeans arrived, only using arrows and clubs rather than guns. Same book, different chapter.

 

[herrwalther]

A few of those "ladies" wearing burkas could easily be wanted terrorists. What an easy way to hide, with a tiny bit of female eye make-up to add the right touch for a man.

How right you are.

One of the times I was in Germany, my platoon had dinner with a GSG-9 team. What an eye opening experience that was in terms of culture difference. Many members of the team were in awe reading about the awesome power of the big American 45 (ACP). And anyone who had fired a 45ACP in a 1911 or some classic Americana weapon got their ear talked off by some genuine gun guys. Who just happened to be German. Germany isn't as bad about gun rights as others on the continent but it is not by much. In the almost 10 years since that dinner, things will have only gotten worse for Europe.

 

[jmace57]

"No crap. I wonder how much grant money he used to come to that conclusion. Probably took him a year and $500k"

...actually 500 k€

 

[entropy]

Don't worry, Slamfire, the birth rates have shot back up in the last 3 years there; but they are not to 'ethnic Europeans'.

 

[Odd Job]

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