Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

WW2 Japanese rifle - what is this?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by desidog, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. desidog

    desidog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,360
    I love guns, and was at a friends house this weekend and he pulled this out to show me. I'm not well versed on Japanese stuff - I think it's a Type 30 (?), in 6.5 Jap, and that's about where my knowledge ends. This rifle was brought back from Manchuria by his father, along with a katana.
    2hflxyg.jpg
    8xv9ea.jpg
    2jcykie.jpg
    9qwp78.jpg
    20sdah4.jpg


    Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  2. caribou

    caribou Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    North West Alaska
    6.5 Arisaka type 38 carbine. :D


    VERY nice!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. tark

    tark Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,093
    Location:
    atkinson, ill
    Nein ! Nyet! It's a type 30 carbine. The hook safety is clearly visible in one of the pics.

    A very nice gun !
     
    LoonWulf and Merle1 like this.
  4. caribou

    caribou Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    North West Alaska
    Ohhhhhhhhh, yep, Tark....type 30.

    I must have not have let more pictures load, I only saw the 2 picts earlier.

    I should have seen the hook type saftey, and lack of hanguard on top the barrel......... thanks for the correction :D
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  5. tark

    tark Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,093
    Location:
    atkinson, ill
    Any chance we could get a pic of the Katana? One never knows what one might find.! My son collects Japanese swords. The standard Japanese Military issue Katanas were not particularly valuable, but sometimes officers would carry family heirlooms into battle. Made by the Great Masters and hundreds of years old. These blades are masterpieces of the blade smiths art. Some are worth well into five figures. The Japanese revere the sword as almost a sacred object, and my son has always surrendered swords that fall into this category to the Japanese Embassy in San Francisco, so they can be returned to their rightful owners.
     
    RA40, bannockburn and LoonWulf like this.
  6. LoonWulf

    LoonWulf Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,319
    Location:
    Hawaii
    I wanna see too!
     
  7. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    3,771
    Location:
    Flatlandistan
    Why is it that I see so many Japanese WWII rifles with the stock cracked like that? Were they made with 2 piece stocks?
     
  8. tark

    tark Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,093
    Location:
    atkinson, ill
    Indeed they were, as a measure to save wood. (Not sure HOW, but that is the standard reason given) The two pieces were dovetailed together and the screw in the receiver's tang was long enough to anchor the forward end of the bottom stock. Looks like it failed to do that in the pic, or perhaps the screw is missing.
     
    Speedo66 likes this.
  9. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    3,771
    Location:
    Flatlandistan
    Thanks. Saw one at a garage sale a few years ago, passed because the stock was cracked. lol

    But the mum was also gone and it wasn't in particularly good shape.
     
  10. caribou

    caribou Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    North West Alaska
    Concerning the Stock made of 2 pieces of wood, they found that they could save a lot of wood with narrower blanks. Litterally, depth of the stock ads inches to the blank, and more blanks could be cut from a plank.(insted of 2, 6 inch deep blanks from a 12inch plank, they would get 3.....etc.)

    The lower/toe of the stock being dovetailed and pinned/glued also helped the Finns, who also spliced the stock ,midstock, and were able to use shorter lengths of wood, and get the bonus that the warpage is minimized, because in a very cold climate, stock warpage in the repeated cold and warm of a house/bunker does a number on wood. The Finns benefited in accuracy that way.
     
  11. DDDWho

    DDDWho Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    170
    Back in the 50s when you could buy surplus guns directly form magazine advertisements shipped to your house most surrender weapons like the Japanese rifles had the rising sun emblem ground off. I see yours is not.... good rifle
     
  12. db_tanker

    db_tanker Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,794
    Location:
    Willis, TX
    intact mum...that makes it a bit more interesting for collectors for sure.
    nice rifle. I do remember reading somewhere the metallurgy for these rifles were outstanding.
     
    Merle1 likes this.
  13. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,707
    Location:
    Morgan County, Alabama
    It still has its chrysanthemum. IIRC that is a bit rare. They were ordered to be ground off at the end of WW2.
     
  14. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,594
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    First, nice rifle. Nice to find old guns in good shape, especially with the Mum still intact.

    Second, cynical me wonders about Tark's son taking them to the Japanese embassy. Thinking of these blades being returned to families is a nice sentiment, but I'd lay even money on a government functionary having a small collection of valuable swords and the families never knowing the difference.
     
    rondog and NIGHTLORD40K like this.
  15. Poper

    Poper Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,168
    Location:
    Approximately N33°18' / W111°48'
    Not likely. That would be incredibly dishonorable, and when discovered, would probably result in the individual's suicide. Also, his family and friends would be greatly shamed. Their "face" (public persona) would forever be damaged if not ruined. "Face" being an extremely important aspect of Japanese culture.

    However, it is very unlikely any repatriated katanas ever made it to the original family. They were more likely confiscated by the Japanese government as it became unlawful for swords to be owned by private individuals following WWII.

    My wife's family Samurai sword was surrendered to the government after WWI as a donation to a museum where it remains today.
     
  16. tark

    tark Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,093
    Location:
    atkinson, ill
    My son has a black belt in Akido, arguably one of the most difficult martial arts to master. It took him seven years to earn it. His sensi (probably spelled that wrong) has made it his life's work to return these blades to the descendants of the blade smiths who created them. Working through the Japanese Consulate in San Francisco, in conjunction with several Japanese clubs dedicated to seeing that these swords return home, they have been remarkably successful.

    A citizen of Japan may legally own a Katana, provided it is registered with an agency called the Nihon Token Kai, (Japanese Sword Registry) and this agency oversees the return of these swords. Conditions must be met before this can happen, and the number one condition is that the sword must have historical significance. A nice way of saying it must have been made by a recognized master swordsmith. Removing the handle on a Katana will reveal the signature of the smith who made it.

    The cookie cutter Katanas made by the military during WW II do not qualify. These were manufactured quickly and cheaply so that officers could have swords, but they were not quality blades, by the standards of the Masters.

    My son has lost considerable sums of money in purchasing some of these swords and then surrendering them to the Japanese government.

    He says the satisfaction of knowing they have returned to their home is more than compensation enough.
     
  17. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    We have the 'type 38' Arisaka, 1938 year of manufacture. It's a carbine length in 6.5 mm, with bayonet. The 'mum' is ground off with ours, as most seem to be.
     
  18. desidog

    desidog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,360
    Thanks for the replies; as per request here is the only picture i took of the katana... I was going to try and research it but haven't gotten on it yet.
    2hmea7d.jpg
     
  19. Poper

    Poper Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,168
    Location:
    Approximately N33°18' / W111°48'
    I appreciate an opportunity to clarify my previous post.
    1) My response to 1911 guy was in response to his concern that a government employee in Japan would steal these repatriated items. It is entirely possible, even likely, such a thing could happen here in the US, but I seriously doubt such a thing would even be considered by a Japanese citizen.
    2) My wife came to the US as a young adult in her early twenties. She is now in her early seventies.
    3) She is NOT an expert on Japanese law and does not pretend to be so.
    4) She reiterated the story of the family sword being surrendered by her father's older brother to the Japanese government immediately after WWII ended.
    5) The Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyokai : The Japanese Cultural Affairs Agency founded the NBTHK in 1948, in response to the Allied prohibition on Japanese swords after World War Two.

    I am pleased to discover there are actually people dedicated to the preservation, recovery and repatriation of these magnificent treasures of history to their rightful place. Your son is indeed an honorable man and one who's reputation is likely held in very high esteem in Japan. Something of which he and his family can be very proud.
     
  20. boom boom

    boom boom Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,457
    Location:
    GA
    Nice find O/P.
     
  21. tark

    tark Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,093
    Location:
    atkinson, ill
    Thanks for the kind words, and I'll pass them on to my son, along with a picture of the signature on the tang of the sword.
    That is the only pic needed to establish the provenance of the blade. It will reveal who made the blade. It is not commonly known that The maker of the blade rarely made the rest of the sword. other craftsmen would make the various other parts and the polisher would put an edge on the blade and carefully polish the entire blade, revealing the Hamon, or temper line, where the springy backbone of the sword met the hardened inner core.
     
  22. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,594
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    I'm glad to hear there is a process for returning historically significant items like these swords. I understand (although probably not completely) the sense of honor in Japanese culture. But never underestimate the degrading nature of government on culture and conscience. So I'm glad there is an organization that does this, not a simple hand off at the embassy.
     
  23. If1HitU

    If1HitU Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    426
    Location:
    L/ville Ky.
    That's a awesome WW II rifle.
     
  24. FN in MT

    FN in MT Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Montana
    I've only ever seen a few , like yours with the mum intact. Sems like 99.9% were ground off....some very deep on a grinding wheel.

    My Dad brought one back from Iwo Jima, his last island. It was ground.
     
  25. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,193
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    Notice how the grain of wood in the lower butt half runs at an angle straight from wrist of the stock to the toe of the butt. Not only makes the best use of limited supplies of suitable gunstock wood, it also avoided chipping off the toe of the butt as happens with stocks from a single piece of wood where the grain must be straight from action to the heel of the butt.
    heel
    _____________________
    _____________________
    ____________
    ________
    __
    toe
    Unfortunately the two sections of the Arisaka stock tend to seperate over time as the two pieces of wood age. A solution to a problem that creates another problem. Today there are fewer people familiar with maintaining and repairing such stocks.
     

Share This Page