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XDE is tough to shoot.

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by D.B. Cooper, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. HighRoadRover

    HighRoadRover Member

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    The Striker Generation (everyone under about 60) generally learned to shoot on striker-fired pistols and assumes they are the standard. Many shooters in this generation strive to make their striker-fired guns' triggers as light and short as they can be [exhibit A: Apex parts] because a lighter, shorter trigger gives the shooter more practical accuracy, e.g., it is easier to press the trigger without moving the sights off target if that trigger is light.

    The Striker Generation has generally worked without safeties -- most striker-fired guns don't have them, and in pistol types that do have safeties, sales of guns with safeties are far below sales of the same gun's variant without the safety. A lore has sprung up among hardened internet posters that safeties are "bad" and that someone who is "trained" doesn't ever need or want a safety.

    Indeed, some folks in some roles have little need for a safety -- based on the way they use the pistol. Safeties may not be as useful to patrolling police officers (whose belt-carried holster is a sort of safety, and whose trigger-off-the-trigger-until-ready-to-fire is another sort of safety) and to those in active and continuous combat, or, for that matter, most competition shooters. In the case of the cop, if the pistol is out because a suspect is being apprehended, if that suspect suddenly pulls a gun -- well, a safety would be an impediment. For an assaulter, under the assumption that there is an armed combatant at the target, a safety "on" would only be an intermediate step that would slow him down (the "safeties" in combat are mental discipline and tactical control measures like the line of departure, assigned duties in the stack, general muzzle discipline, etc.). The competition shooter generally doesn't need a safety -- his or her "safety" is muzzle discipline on the course and the beeper, I'd guess.

    For people who carry and handle the pistol a lot more than they shoot it in anger (or competition), a mechanical safety (and a long trigger pull for the first shot, and a decocker) might be very useful indeed. The cop is only supposed to shoot to protect life or stop a dangerous felon; the soldier is only supposed to shoot when confronting a threat that meets the ROE; these are more on-off situations where training can indeed be beneficially focused in advance, and where having a pistol with a mechanical safety "on" could cost precious response time. For all other soldiers who are not imminently engaged in combat but who carry weapons around a lot while performing other duties; or for security guards on routine patrols; or for civilian concealed carry permittees, etc., the decision to shoot is going to generally have more ambiguity and require more situational analysis (which take time). In those cases, a safety can be operated fairly easily during the time period where assessment and decision making are taking place. In these type of situations, where the individual has to determine if he or she has justification or need to use force, that short period of time to operate the safety is probably a blessing. (The Army apparently believes that most of its people who might have to carry a pistol as a personal defense or backup weapon are not in active combat most of the time and benefit from having a safety -- and has specified their variants of the P320, the M17 and the M18, will have one).

    Thus for the non-operator or non-competitor, the benefits of a mechanical safety on the pistol (e.g., the prevention of accidental or negligent discharges during long periods when the gun is carried and during repeated instances of loading or unloading a weapon, or holstering and unholstering a weapon for administrative purposes) out weigh the down side (a half a second delay in firing up a possible target in the rare instances when such presents itself unambiguously).

    That a return to the hammer-fired pistol with a long trigger pull and a safety might make for a realistically safer pistol for the civilian user under every day conditions has been discovered by some members of the Striker Generation. The XDE fits the description of a desirable type of pistol for those who have made this discovery.

    For the person who prefers a striker-fired pistol with a pre-tensioned striker with a light and short trigger, and wants to carry that IWB, pointed at his crotch day in and day out for years in anticipation of the imminent need to draw and fire the weapon instantaneously, there are plenty of other choices on the market. But for the person who wants a pistol with a safety -- because it is a little bit safer when there are dangly pull cords on jackets, and bunched up T- shirt material around the beltline where the IWB holster resides, or little kids who might reach into Momma's purse in the back seat of the car, or extra trigger fingers inadvertently left in trigger guards when a pistol is reinserted in the holster repeatedly -- well, the XDE might be a reasonable proposition. [I mention those examples because each of those scenarios has accounted for at least one fatal shooting of an innocent person by a good guy or girl in the past year].

    Now, how good is the XDE's trigger? How reliable is the action? I'll find out as I run the first couple of thousand rounds through my XDE, which just joined my collection of revolvers and hammer-fired pistols with safeties and decockers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  2. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    While I didn't quote your entire post here (for brevity), your entire post was superbly stated. The portion I did quote here sums up my position on manual safeties quite well. (That, and a lot of my training comes either from my dad or from the Army, both of which put a premium on safety/force protection.)

    The only thing in your post I might challenge is the notion of the "Striker Generation" being all those under age 60. I am well shy of 60 and have had zero experience (never even fired one) with any striker fired guns. I learned to shoot a handgun with a S&W Model 10 and a Ruger Mark II rimfire.
     
  3. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

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    DB, I don’t understand. You focused on the secondary attributes in choosing the gun and ignored the primary ones. You wanted a range/target/competition gun, but you chose a tiny CC gun. You needed the best target type trigger possible, SAO, but instead you picked the worst, DA/SA. You are afraid of Condition1, which is perfectly fair, but only if you intend to carry the gun, which you don’t. Also coming from a SA revolver, you should have chosen a full size, easy-to-manage gun to allow you to develop handling skill with a semi-auto that could translate to smaller guns later. Yet you picked a very small gun. You bought the gun to leave in a bug out bag, for which it would be suitable, but you are trying to compete with it for which it was not designed. A lot of what you don’t like about the XDE is just inherent to it, not defects. You simply picked wrong. Put the XDE in the bug out bag and get yourself a gun to shoot.
     
  4. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    When I got it the trigger on my Makarov was just plain awful. I detail stripped it and use a green-pad to polish all mating parts (other than the trigger/sear junction). When I was done it was still heavy, but not as heavy as it had been. The thing it had the most effect on was the smoothness. When I was done, it felt like a quality pistol.

    The reasons not to do that on the XDe: Firstly, you may not feel comfortable detail stripping it. Secondly, it would probably void the warranty (it might not I really don't know).
     
  5. HighRoadRover

    HighRoadRover Member

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    I shot 100 rounds with my new XDE-9 today and it was reliable and surprisingly accurate. So far, I like it a lot. It is not as easy to shoot as a full-size 9mm pistol, and it is not as easy to conceal as a mini-9 pistol (for example, it is a bit too big to go into a front pocket in a pair of jeans). It is a kind of compromise - roughly the same size as a Shield, a G48X, or a P239 - that makes is reasonably easy to handle and gives it reasonable capacity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  6. <*(((><
    • Contributing Member

    <*(((>< Luke

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    nevermind thinking of the wrong gun
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  7. <*(((><
    • Contributing Member

    <*(((>< Luke

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    So you won't own a DA or DA/SA autoloader? Those essentially are a revolver minus using a magazine rather than a cylinder and semi-auto.
     
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  8. HighRoadRover

    HighRoadRover Member

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    The Ruger Mark II has a firing pin and a hammer -- it is not a "striker-fired pistol." Although I had to look at the schematics and parts lists on Midway and Brownell's to be sure. It reminds me of a little rifle, with that moving bolt...

    I am NOT suggesting that striker-fired guns are bad, only that hammer-fired guns have some advantages - and that people who are not familiar with them could perhaps give them a look. All part of the effort to "defend" the XDE against people saying striker-biased things like "the DA trigger press is too long" and "the safety on a XDE is useless."
     
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  9. jonb32248

    jonb32248 Member

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    I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. The one thing that I love about my XDE is with the safety on I can unload the chamber without fear of a round going off due to let's say slipping and the slide slamming closed. With the safety on my finger can't pull the trigger, it's inactive. I've got both types of guns but enjoy the added qualities of a hammer fired DA/SA handgun.
     
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  10. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    My only experience with DA/SA comes from an old Ruger P-series. I spent a lot of time dry firing with a coin balanced on the front sight of it learning the Double Action trigger pull. If I ever buy another DA/SA I doubt I would be interested in a safety as it has a long heavy trigger for the first shot and if one puts there thumb on the hammer
    when holstering they can feel any rearward motion of the hammer & stop . I did a search on the XDE. At least the safety on it is frame mounted & down for fire. The slide mounted one on the Ruger always seemed backwards to me. DA/SA just takes more practice as there are two different triggers to learn.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  11. HighRoadRover

    HighRoadRover Member

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    One of the all-time great DA/SA pistol types, roughly the same size as the XDE, was the S&W Mdl 39XX family all metal pistols. They had a slide-mounted safety, with a large lever, which moved up to be off safe, the opposite of the classic 1911 and the XDE. The 39XX's still have their die-hard adherents, but the pistol is considered obsolescent (the main production line stopped at the end of the last century, although some versions continued to be built in small numbers for special customers until very recently).

    The frame-mounted safety on the XDE was well-designed by Springfield and HS Produkt. First, it is easy to get traction on, but is not large. It swipes down (off safe) with a distinct but fairly light motion. It is harder to push up (on safe) which is good; no one wants a safety to go "on" by itself after a few rounds (S&W has had this problem with some of its Shield 380 EZs). The safety lever is also the decocker, but it is fairly hard to push down all the way to the decock position, which is very good too.

    Again, this is a gun for DA/SA fans, and it fits the niche very well. Mine is growing on me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  12. jonb32248

    jonb32248 Member

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    Mines not going anywhere. The only problem I have had is the trigger pin has walked out the last two range visits. It moves about an 1/8". This last time I put a little Locktite blue on it, so we'll see how it reacts next time. But other than that the gun hasn't missed a beat yet, from unboxing to now.
     
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  13. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    I first got a DA/SA pistol in the early 1980s, a Beretta M84. Wonderful pistol but I considered the DA trigger pull a "gimme" and I'd expect to hit my target with the second, SA shot. (FYI, I still have that Beretta M84 and have darn near worn it out).

    In the last 10 years or so, I have been shooting a S&W M642 and M442 alot and have gotten very much more capable with my DA trigger pull. So, a DA/SA semi-auto gun is now a better option for me.

    I like my XDe but the sizing of the gun does not suit me for the DA trigger pull. I bought an H&K P30SK after shooting the XDe for a while and it's DA trigger suits me better. See my post #17 for additional information.

    I agree with HighRoadRover's post #26.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  14. Iroquois

    Iroquois Member

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    I have 2 of the XDE’s. I bought them for my wife and daughter, although my young teenage son shoots them well. They have about 3,000 rounds through both of them and they have never had a FTF or FTE. I think it was a good purchase for the intended use, SD for the ladies. It’s easily carried by both and they can operate the safety and de-cocker with no issues. Yes, we practice, and at 7 to 10 yards they are accurate.
    As for me, I find the grip a little small. I can shoot it but it just doesn’t feel comfortable. I, like you, am a revolver guy. Maybe that’s my issue with it as well.
     
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  15. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

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    When I purchased my first handgun it was a retired S&W 6906 which is DA/SA. I really didn't have a defined purpose for getting it, rather I wanted to start shooting handguns and was considering it for a CCW application.

    My overall impression of the gun was favorable but I though in my mind that the DA/SA trigger, in a word, sucked. So, I started looking at other options, a hammer DAO, SA 1911 and Striker Fire guns. And I obtained a sample of each. After a time I had myself convinced that the DA/SA trigger in general is a flawed concept and as a result I gave my 6906 to my brother.

    Since starting this endeavor of handgun shooting I have easily sent 80,000 rounds down range, a lot by some standards, a piker by others. But still it is enough shooting to know that as long as the gun is capable of accuracy, the particulars, especially the "negatives" of any particular trigger can be overcome by lots of use and/or practice. So I think it comes down to defining the use of the firearm and then obtaining the skills through practice and drill.
     
  16. Drail

    Drail Member

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    Pistols like the XDE were designed to sell and that's all. Why anyone would handicap themselves with a horrible trigger is something I will never understand. While it may be possible to learn to overcome that trigger it is totally unnecessary.
     
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  17. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

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    You are speaking my language. I agree completely. I can see it as a safe approach for a carry piece providing you can shoot it reasonably accurately. You may not like it, but it is safe and it works. What difference does a lousy trigger make if you only put 25 rounds a year through it to refresh your memory. But as a range gun or anything even vaguely similar, no way.
     
  18. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    I have not shot one, so I will not be so lame as to judge it. Lol, I would say most guns are designed to sell. I would like to try the gun out and then made my own judgement. I have shot many SA/DA, double action, and striker fired guns for longer than I can remember and can shoot all of them. And I have no problem at all with using a safety provided it moves in downward position. What do I prefer, a smooth double action with no safety. I will no longer again buy or carry a LIGHT Striker fired gun for carry, Yes for target shooting. If you like them, for carry, then great, go for it.
    Like I said, I would love to shoot a XDE, have already put the word out to my club members, or will try and rent one. Not interested in 9mm, but would like to try one in 45. They sound like nice guns but the proof of the pudding will be in the shooting characteristics.
     
  19. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Here is a interesting video.Yes, it appears to be a very nice firearm and priced nice as well.

     
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  20. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

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    Wow, Jeb. That combo of small, light gun, very small grip and .45ACP could be brutal. Of course as the video shows, it isn't the smallest or lightest, but still...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  21. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Probably, but still want to shoot one. I am more than happy with my micro 9m. But I do find the gun interesting. I spent well over 6 months when I decided to make a change to a new small 9mm, shot just about every thing out there. I now want a 45, so am on the same journey. And I plan to have fun all the way.
     
  22. Drail

    Drail Member

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    44 Spl. is still the best thing I have found but only if you handload. Old Elmer was right about the .44 Spl. cartridge. It really IS that good.
     
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  23. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    I carried a Model 6906 for many years after my agency transitioned to autos from revolvers and found it to be a superb self-defense pistol. Maybe it's just a residual from my training but I think a da/sa trigger is a well-conceived configuration for a pistol intended for self-defense. Each to their own, I suppose, but lots of practice behind the wheel and good training goes a long way for being competent with any handgun design.
     
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  24. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Your assessments are spot on. Budget constraints, combined with the deal I got on the XDE, motivated me to buy one gun for both purposes. That said, I believe training should be as realistic as possible, which means train with the gun you leave in the bug out bag.
     
  25. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

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    Understood and agreed with that you should train with your carry or bug out gun. But a little training is, or at least can be, different from fun and competitive shooting. I just got a damned nice ATI 1911 .45ACP Commander for $329 delivered to my FFL, and I love it. The ATI 1911 also comes in 9mm. For that price you can have a sweet shooting range/competition gun. Sure it is a bit rough around the edges, but it is well fit and very accurate. Trigger is decent and will only get better over time. What's not to like?

    P.S. I have spent a few bucks on upgrades already, but they were not absolutely necessary. I spent about $30 on G10 grips, which really dress up the gun. The OEM grips were kind of cheesy, mahogany I think. And being a lefty, I had a Wilson Combat ambi safety installed. Plus I sprang for my standard inexpensive Sightmark red dot and GI 1911 dovetail mount. You wouldn't need to do any of that. Jus' sayin'. Here it is before the new safety.

    1911-4.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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