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Yard sale find, what do you expect for $25!?!?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Cult of 1858, Aug 28, 2011.

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  1. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    Me and the little tyke are out this morning getting some chores done and getting ready for a play date she has, on the way over to the friends house I pass a yard sale sign that states 'old stuff and not just junk', which got me interested so i pulled over.

    There are boxes upon boxes of stuff and i realize that some poor sods just bit the cord and the estates being cleared. There was everything, scythes, horse drawn harrows and plows, loads of tack, loads of old hunting and fishing stuff that is now woefully out of date and/or completely useless. Dozens of deer and elk racks.

    Then i get to the corner and see a guy turning a box over that looks like a cigar box. When he opens it, and notices it is an old pistol presentation box, empty. He says something to his wife, puts it under his arm and goes back to the box. He then pulls out some old grey oxidized leaf ingots, a crucible and some molds. By now I am almost in tears that i missed these and just watch him walk away quickly pay.

    My daughters got her head stuck in another box and turns to me a says loudly "GUN DADA", which is part of our gun safety, if my girls ever see a gun they are to step away and shout me.

    I dive over and pull out this...

    I think i was salivating..

    I know its obviously an 1858, but it does not look like either my Pietta's or my Uberti.

    I go to pay and ask him what he want's... "Oh that old thing? Its a wall hanger, give me $25 and call it good"

    I have yet to take it apart, but i can find NO stamps, NO barrel marks, NO makers mark, etc.

    At least the action works, seems crisp, and the cylinder is free spinning and no back and forward play. Its definitely not going to be a 'wall hanger'

    Anyone any idea who made them without markings??

    Sorry about the pics, its late!

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  2. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    i am literally drooling over here. i would give a kidney for that, but you get a 58 Remington for $25. you have got to be one of the luckiest people alive to get that deal. i NEVER see guns at yard sales in California, let alone really, really, cool guns for $25. great find! i hope she shoots well!
     
  3. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    So, comparison pic. The one on the right is my Pietta.
    Differences that i can see so far.
    Frame shape is different between front of cylinder and front of frame. The curve down from the top strap to back of barrel is a lot sharper on the Pietta .. oh hell, i dont need to describe it, you can see.

    The biggest difference is the FEEL of my 'new' revolver. The grip is a different shape, and feels a lot nicer in the hand, the better grip and nicer angle between stock and frame also makes the pistol feel lighter and it points easier.

    IMG_1943_resize-1.gif
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  4. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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  5. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    additional pics

    I cleaned off some of the crud from the barrel and found what looks like a stamp. It also looks like there are some rake marks from a file all along the underside of the barrel. The first stamp is on the underside of the barrel, directly in front of the cylinder retaining pin. Only one number is left untouched.
    I then got real curious and took off the grips for a clean and look. Ballistol works wonders on old stuff and after a spray and wipe, i found some more marks. The left hand grip appears to have a cartouche box that has been scribbled over. The inside of the right wood grip has what looks like T Bar C. The grip frame is stamped 150.

    At this point i am REALLY curious of other peoples opinions of this revolver!!

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  6. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    update to additional pics

    More crud came off and i can clearly see the 50 of the serial number under the barrel. I am not going to chance my luck with the retaining screw to remove the cylinder pin, but i am purty darn sure there is a 1 under there.

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  7. azyogi

    azyogi Member

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  8. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    I am not obsessing over this darn revolver.. Something aint right and i cant put my finger on it.

    I did find another "no markings" 1858 on gunbroker and he is stating that he thinks that his is a repro.
     
  9. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    First of all, it's not an 1858 Remington New Army.

    It's a Remington-Beals Army (assuming it's a .44 cal); this is clear from the area immediately in front of the cylinder at the top - there are no barrel threads showing as on the later Remington New Army. The Remington-Beals was the first model in the line leading to the eventual 1858 Remington New Army. As to whether or not it's an original or a copy, I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards a repro. If it's an original, in that condition it's worth about $1200.

    It's clearly been defarbed, intentionally. The number 150 is likely not a serial number but rather a production number, intended to identify major assemblies once they had been fitted to a particular gun. If it's an original the number is definitely not a serial number as the first 850 did not have an inspector's cartouche; the cartouche that's been scratched out would most likely be either a WAT or CGC. Also, the Remington-Beals Army did not have the hammer safety notches on the cylinder, so that's a discrepancy. Another problem with it being an original is the loading lever latch appears to be a later design not found on the Remington-Beals Army.

    An interesting gun, clearly worth investigating further. It needs examining by an expert in the 1858 Remington.
     
  10. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    Without proof mark, it just may be a wallhanger. Many of them were made and sold in this country. And not all of them were made from plastic.
     
  11. Ohio Gun Guy

    Ohio Gun Guy Member

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    Its worth 25 dollars for the fun of figuring it out and the potential upside!
    Your daughter is wondering what the finders fee is if thats an original..... he he
     
  12. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    Thanks for the comments so far. I am off to a civil war re-enactment and am taking this beastie with me to see if it can be identified further.

    Thanks mykeal for the Remington-Beal comments, those are exactly why i have the 'something aint right' feeling.

    The brown on the metal seems to be residue from some cleaner or preservative oil/dirt mix. Its actually scraping off in some places (you can see the ring around the cylinder where its cutting through the crud. Soaking with Ballistol last night seems to be freeing a load of gunk.

    The timing is way off. Also the hammer clicks... instead of "Click.....clickclick" like my repros do, its going "clickclick.... clickclick" but, again it could be gunk inside.
     
  13. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    finders fee??? well, so far she has gotten a new "monster high" toy, and i am taking her out for lunch now before wife gets back with other kid (they have had a weekend away with Girl Sprouts).

    If this IS anything special (which i am in no way expecting), then she may get a few more pressies.
     
  14. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    More presents/perks? I don't think so, fella. The kid found it so the gun is HERS!!:D
     
  15. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    Back from the 'wars' and I have this weird 'silly grin' on my face, and before you think it.. NO this is not a complete original... maybe

    The re-enactors were really helpful and i was surprised how many people came over to have a look. The first guy said he was 'a Colt man' and passed me on to 'Jeremiah' who was 'the Remmie man'...

    He and a few of his interested friends gave it a good scrub and found a few things that I hadn't even noticed.
    1- stamp on the metal which he thinks is an arrow pointing towards another stamp which looks like a letter. I have done a 'blow up' of this in one of the pics
    2- the cartouche looks like it starts with a G
    3- the cylinder is NOT original but looks like it has been 'made to fit'

    I will just summarize a long conversation. These are the views of a few re-enactors, I am not saying that they are or are not correct.
    The cylinder is probably from an early "Navy Arms" repro. It is has the serial 09832 with a Double Diamond. It also has BP marks of Star PN and VT Gardone. These place it definite Italian. It also looks like it has been shortened and some work done on the star mechanism on the rear. It was also noted the the metal on the cylinder and the metal of the pistol did not match. Nipples are 'newer' than the cylinder.
    One of the guys said he could make out "Dec 18" on part of the barrel top. I cant make it out but my eyes (even with glasses) aint overly good anymore.
    The front trigger is a pinched version, someone has tried to thin it a little with a file.
    Hammer top has been filed down so that there is more eye clearance for sighting.
    There are a couple of 'newer' parts inside.
    The trigger screw was removed and we tried replacing it with an Uberti screw, and an original screw from an NMA serial in the 8xxx range. Neither fit, although the original seemed 'closer fit'.

    So... down to it, and i am still open for other peoples 'interpretations'.

    The gun seems it may be mostly an 1861 Remington Army 44, or its a damn close replica.... NOT Remington-Beals or NMA. Cylinder replace sometime in the 1960's.

    I am still not sure what it is...

    I popped by the 'sale' table and picked some more reading material and a Pietta Colt 1860 missing the barrel wedge.

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  16. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    Curiouser and curiouser.
     
  17. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    Very Nice find.
     
  18. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    If you can tell whether or not it uses metric screws and bolts should settle the question "is it an Italian replica", correct?
     
  19. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    From the limited test we did, neither Uberti (Italian) nor Remington (original) fit. So, i may be screwed.

    It does seem that like most 'good things' a LOT of people copied them, so it may not be Italian, it may even be American, but using different size threads. I dunno!
     
  20. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    I agree it's not a Remington-Beals like I first thought. Not sure about the 1861 Remington Army, however. Hard to tell.

    I have an early Armi San Paolo/Euroarms replica of the Remington-Beals which has fully enclosed barrel threads in the forcing cone area. See the Pietta replica of the Remington New Navy below for a comparison. (The ASP did not faithfully reproduce the Remington-Beals cylinder design, having the hammer safety notches as you can see.)
    0140.jpg

    I certainly also agree the cylinder is not original - it's clearly of Italian origin. As to the rest of the gun - it's origin is still a bit of a mystery.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  21. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    ... nvrmind
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  22. Cult of 1858

    Cult of 1858 Member

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    Dropped it off at the gunsmiths this morning. Asked him to check out the barrel, see if its ok for shooting, and check screw size. I will find out this afternoon if its anything or nothing.
    When i dropped it off he was interested. I also left him one of my Piettas and my Uberti for comparison.

    -0-----

    Edit - does anyone have any reference material on the diameter of the cylinders for the different clones??
     
  23. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    Not a black powder guy, but what an interesting pistol you have found there. The price is perfect too!
     
  24. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    The thing that tells me that it is a modern repro is the two casting vents on the sides of the grip irons, about half-way up the grips.

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    Smith-made guns wouldn't have cast grip irons and original factory guns used a different sprueing system.
     
  25. wally247

    wally247 Member

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    Nice catch Theo!
     
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