Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Yes, I'd like some cheese with this whine.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Combat-wombat, May 21, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,683
    I've noticed that the "tough on criminals" law-and-order mentality is quite prevalent here on THR, and it bothers me a bit. Everyone is clamoring for more executions, executions and life sentences for pedophiles, etc. Even for non-violent crimes there's the "can't do the time don't do the crime" attitude present.

    Don't get me wrong, pedophiles, rapists, and the like are some of the sickest, lowest scum on earth. However, all of this attitude assumes that our legal system is infallible. The fact is, it isn't. So many innocent people are convicted every year of horrible crimes, and sentenced to death or life in prison.

    Also, it just annoys me to see people so hell bent on seeing people pay dearly. We're too eager to punish others with no sympathy.

    And, finally, I know many THR members are Christian, so I'll try and appeal to that. I'm no bible scholar, but I was raised on many Christian principles. Jesus taught forgiveness, right? What about "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? From what I see, Jesus is about love and forgiveness. It's ironic that the same religious right whose platform is based on Christianity is the same group who wants strict punisments for criminals.

    Here's a few points of my proposal for the Justice/Prison System:

    -Good behavior needs to be rewarded with parole and possible release into society, for almost any criminal. This gives the idea light at the end of the tunnel. Criminals will have a chance to reform, and innocent prisoners won't have their lives completely ruined.

    -Extreme cases deserve death. I mean, absolute DNA and physical PROOF of guilt of first-degree murder. Even then, death should be reserved only for cases of extreme brutality/no remorse on killer's behalf, etc. No circumstantial evidence death sentences whatsoever.

    -Life in prison without parole is probably one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. If someone's worthy of this sentence, it's worthy of death. Why should we pay for someone to spend their life in prison when there is no possible way they can reform, or leave? The convict just sits there, wasting our money, and can never have a second chance at becoming a productive member of soceity.

    Tell me what you think about this. I'd like to know what you support/oppose about it and why. I was just thinking about this the other day and wanted to get an idea on what people here thought about it- I hope this doesn't turn into a giant flamewar.



    -dons nomex hood, nervously looks around-
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2005
  2. Tom Bri

    Tom Bri Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Rockford Illinois
    In general I agree with you, the death penalty should be reserved for cases where guilt is very clear and convincing. That is becoming easier as genetic testing gets better. I don't mind the death penalty for murder, child molestation and crimes of that sort. I think sexual predators should face the death penalty.

    As for life in prison without parole. That is for cases where the evidence is not quite as clear as in death penalty cases. Perhaps something will come to light, even decades later, to prove innocence. It happens often enough.

    Concerning the Christian religion. Forgiveness is appropriate for private individuals. But not for the government. I may somehow forgive the criminal (as the Pope did for his attempted assassin) but that does not mean I want the government to forget his crime. Forgiveness does not mean a crime does not have to be paid for. Two separate issues.
     
  3. ravinraven

    ravinraven Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    803
    Location:
    Brasher Falls NY
    A couple odd notions.

    I've heard that it costs more to execute someone due to the legal moves and counter-moves that may take twenty years at $XXX per hour to play out than it does to just feed him. An advantage of keeping him alive is that he gets fifty years or more to regret what he did.

    As for this thought:

    "As for life in prison without parole. That is for cases where the evidence is not quite as clear as in death penalty cases."

    I've heard it argued that if the jury is not convinced that the defendent is guilty to the point of executing him, they have no business convicting him. This is not a "Let's give him life 'cause maybe he didn't do it" situation. It's what's called The Precautionary Principle. Everyone who follows any natural science vs politicized science debate in these founding days of the Global Warming Religion realizes what that is costing humanity.

    rr
     
  4. longspurr

    longspurr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    by the lake - in wonderful Wisconsin
    “I've noticed that the "tough on criminals" law-and-order mentality is quite prevalent here on THR
    This attitude comes from NOT wanting to be a victim of crime. IE do you want to be a crime statistic, Raped-robbed-killed?? You don’t have to search far to find posts of people that “didn’t want to hurt anyone” until they or someone close was a serious crime victim. Suddenly they are looking at guns – and they understand the meaning of NEVER AGAIN.

    “I've heard it argued that if the jury is not convinced that the defendant is guilty to the point of executing him, they have no business convicting him. This is not a "Let's give him life 'cause maybe he didn't do it" situation. It's what's called The Precautionary Principle.
    I haven’t heard of this Principle but Google has:
    the Precautionary Principle: When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity(person being charged with the crime), rather than the public, should bear the burden.

    In Atlanta GA. A guy was convicted of killing 21 black children (Wayne Williams?). Doubt is being raised about his guilt – but the killings stopped when he was arrested.

    -Life in prison without parole is probably one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. If someone's worthy of this sentence, it's worthy of death. Why should we pay for someone to spend their life in prison when there is no possible way they can reform, or leave? The convict just sits there, wasting our money, and can never have a second chance at becoming a productive member of society.

    People know that even if it sounds convincing now, 20 years from now we may look back and say “how could they do that”. This is part of mature wisdom. In Illinois 7 people on death row were released because DNA or other evidence came later that proved they were NOT the guilty party.

    Life without parole is a bad thing. It comes from well meaning idiots that want no one harmed, and good people that don’t trust the state to “get it right”. Until we can come up a better system we are stuck with this bad one. A science fiction alternative – cryo suspension for 30 years and if no new evidence comes forth then execution is delivered.
     
  5. one-shot-one

    one-shot-one Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location:
    texas
    at the risk of getting this locked...

    Jesus forgave sins to my recollection he never commuted any sentence that was convicted in a proper court. he allowed his friend and cousin john the baptist to be beheaded, he did stop the stoning of the adulteress women but only by pointing out the hypocrisy of those who sought her death, they were not worried about her sin or its effect on their society but only sought to trick him.
    also we must always remember everyone in prison is innocent!
     
  6. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    16,213
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    Hear, hear!
     
  7. Psssniper

    Psssniper Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    600
    Location:
    PRK
    My guess is that you're still a youth? 17-20-ish? :D
     
  8. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,309
    Location:
    Louisiana, USA
    O violent marsupial, there are some good points in your argument: however, they run up against the realities of life, and that's the problem.

    1. Most criminals are not going to be deterred from future crime by a "softly, softly" approach - heck, they're not deterred by a harder line! The recidivism rate, nationally, approaches 70% in 5 years: that is to say, of every 100 criminals released from prison, 70-odd will be back in jail within 5 years of their release. So parole, probation, etc. are not incentives to improve behavior.

    2. I'm personally completely opposed to the death penalty, partly on religious grounds, partly because there have been too many cases of people being sentenced to death and then found to be innocent. Many have been exonerated before being executed - but that implies that many have been executed before they could be exonerated. The death of even one innocent person is too many, so I want the death penalty removed altogether.

    3. The death penalty is far more expensive to administer (in our present legal climate) than life in prison. For the cost of a typical death sentence, including appeals, counter-appeals, rebuttals, etc. (virtually all of which is paid for by the state), you can incarcerate someone in a maximum-security facility for 20 to 30 years.

    4. The death penalty is actually an easier sentence than life in prison. I've personally known inmates who committed suicide after their final appeals were denied, and they realized that the rest of their life was going to be spent in a grey concrete and steel bar environment, surrounded by violent predators. Life imprisonment is no joke... and for the worst offenders (e.g. paedophiles, etc.) can be made much harder.

    5. Whilst imposing life imprisonment, or long sentences for violent crime, there are ways to reward good behavior. A certain degree of sentence reduction can be countenanced, but this should be for extraordinary behavior - e.g. informing guards of a planned assault, thereby saving lives, or something like that. For less spectacular good behavior, there are many other ways of offering incentives: greater canteen privileges, more books/letters/phone calls/visits allowed, transfer to a lower-security-level prison, etc. Most of these systems are already in place, but can be improved.
     
  9. Arc-Lite

    Arc-Lite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    818
    Today .... when someone is sentenced to death, what does that mean? many times life.... and what does life mean, many times they get released after serving less then life.... if we are going to sentence these scum bags, let do it...and if its death, lets be done with them !!! The whole approach, of everyone have rights, except the victim...is crazy. The killer of another man, to gain personally from that action... has more suppot groups, and more people concerned with his soul....and his rights...then the one in the ground. As for the religious side of this question....thats between you and your God... as for the reality of this question... we need to let these scum bags know, that if your going to do the crime, you best be ready to dance to the music....and the DJ, has the music playing. In those cases that there might be a question and the crime warrents death, then lets keep after it, till the question is clear.... and then lets carry it out...the sooner the better. We as a society have excuses for EVERYTHING....and as that becomes the norm, our responsibilities to ourself, and each other becomes less....
     
  10. pythonguy

    pythonguy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Location:
    Long Island, New York
    Combat-wombat,

    I'm sure you are a good guy but you are living in a fool's paradise if you think you can reform or handle criminals with kid gloves. While I am not, of course, for torture in prison, there is just no better way at this time then the penalties we currently have.

    one-shot-one,

    You religious views are heart felt I'm sure, but there has been more death and suffering done in the name of religion then anything else, so maybe there needs to be a different solution for the masses.

    The problem is criminals are not, by and large, nice law abiding religious people like most of us are. They exploit those values for their own sick and criminal gains. So while all the non-criminal types will do fine with all the suggestions here, the ones that need them will laugh and rob or kill you while you try and get your message through to them. Maybe the next world will be more civilized.
     
  11. LadySmith

    LadySmith Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    254
    Combat,
    Perhaps what you're seeing is a lot of frustration towards what appears to be an increasingly fallible "justice" system. We see & read about revolving door recidivism and criminals with mile-long rap sheets that inexorably led up to murder. We see evidence of evil and our system's inability or unwillingness to deal with it. Also, a lot of the time, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime.
    Sometimes some folks on THR may reflect the baser elements of humanity, yet here at least I see the attempt to rise above it.
     
  12. LadySmith

    LadySmith Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    254
    Now for something completely different...

    Here's my tongue-in-cheek proposal for the Justice/Prison System:
    #1: Murder, sexual predation, serial killers: Death because of convicts' obvious danger to society. Option to have method of execution determined & carried out by survivors & family of victims. May also serve for ballistics and other lethal weapons testing in order to be of some benefit to society.
    #2: Other homicides: Victim's family get the option of claiming ownership of the convict, otherwise sentence to be determined by judge/jury.
    #3: Drug dealers: Mandatory participation in medical/drug experiments. Their lack of concern towards the societal effects of the products they peddled make them ideal candidates for role reversal.
    #3: Drug addicts: Rehab, restitution to victims if they stole to support their habits and community service in rehab facilities.
    #4: Burglars: Restitution to victims, reform/job training, rehab/probation in a halfway house where their rooms have no locks. Eventually, they might get tired of stealing from each other.
    #5: Robbers: Restitution to victims, reform/job training, community service as sparring partners or unarmed guards in areas hazardous to watchdogs. This way their threatening natures may be put to constructive use.
    #6: Drunk drivers: Rehab & mandatory participation in driver/vehicle safety programs. Repeat offenders may serve as crash test dummies. Odds of their survival about the same as it would be on the street. Survivors get rehab, community service & make restitution for any damages they caused.
    #7: Reckless endangerment: Mandatory service as stunt personnel without the required use of safety equipment.
    :evil:
     
  13. one-shot-one

    one-shot-one Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location:
    texas
    pythonguy

    They are, but my only point was/is that pulling the name of Jesus into this won't solve or clear-up anything, it will only further complicate it. as for the old "more evil in the name of religion" argument I did not mention religion only Jesus. personally I believe that everyone currently drawing breath on this world, regardless of what they or those around them say are capable of great evil under the right/wrong circumstances.
    so in essence we agree on the original point of criminal penalities.
     
  14. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,683
    Well, to address the idea that these criminals will be a danger to society when released- This idea is also dependent on guns becoming much more widely accepted and used for defense as common staples of life. (while we're talking about pie in the sky)
    15- Durned liberal whippersnapper.
    I'm actually not religious- just trying to appeal to the religious crowd here. I do respect Christianity, but agree with you on how religion has caused much pain, suffering, and violence over the ages.
    Yes- especially with non-violent criminals. I just saw a piece on CNN where a nonviolent criminal sold marijuana while carrying a gun. First offense-55 years in prison.

    And finally, we've tried this tough justice system and everything, and I've got a question. Has it worked? Can we say that we are free of violent crimes? No! Not in the slightest bit. It's obvious we STILL have tons of problems that need to be dealt with some other way.
     
  15. LHB1

    LHB1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Houston
    Combat-wombat,
    Sounds like you need to grow up mentally (possibly physically too). As far as sympathy, how about more concern, sympathy, and "real" restitution (for financial costs) for the victims? Everything in the legal system seems to be about "the rights of the accused". How about the "rights of the victim"?

    As far as Jesus is concerned, read/study some more. Jesus forgave sins against God; he did not go around pardoning criminals and releasing them from prisons. He/God even allowed some of his disciples to be imprisoned. Criminals are punished for violating the laws of the land. Jesus said "Render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what is Caesar's".

    Good shooting and be safe.
    LB
     
  16. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,683
    Not trying to start an argument here, but just because I have an opinion you do not agree with doesn't indicate my lack of maturity. If you disagree, I'd appreciate a logical rebuttal rather than an attack on my age or maturity.
     
  17. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    Messages:
    5,906
    Location:
    Reno, Nevada
    I used to feel the same way untill

    an ex con on release for good behavior raped my (ex)girlfriend (1978,I'm over it,she never recovered,oddly enough she is still anti gun).
    Another ex con on parole for rape attacked me at work (1998) because I violated some kind of prison rule that I didn't know existed .
    I know two ex cons from my spiritual group that are ok but for the most part, most belong there.
    The few that can be rehabillitated need to be drug and alcohol free for ever.
    not even a shot of whiskey on news years eve.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2005
  18. NavajoNPaleFace

    NavajoNPaleFace Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Messages:
    566
    Location:
    Too Dang Hot, Arizona
    qoute by Combat-wombat: "Well, to address the idea that these criminals will be a danger to society when released- This idea is also dependent on guns becoming much more widely accepted and used for defense as common staples of life. (while we're talking about pie in the sky)"

    Please explain that comment....sounds like you are saying criminals are dangerous because of the availabilty of firearms. If that is the intent of your comments...hogwash! More personal deaths are contributed to knives, pipes, bats, etc. than ALL firearms types combined.

    I am simply going to say that I have followed this thread and some of your ideas as naive, to say the least.

    You obviously have never been the victim of a crime. I saw it every day for just over 28 years. Anything from a head lying by the front door and the body in the bedroom to 200 pounds of mangled and unidentifiable 'ground beef' in a vehicular accident where someone was running from their misdeeds...the list goes on and on.

    I think that in cases of admitted guilt in gruesome homicides, horrendous rape cases and child molestation (to name a few) .......the .34 cents X 4 for a good firing squad releases the social burden of paying $30.00 plus a day to keep the scum bag fat and happy.
     
  19. Arc-Lite

    Arc-Lite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    818
    Navajo...I read it as...If society is armed then the scum, will think twice before being scum....I might be wrong, in my reading....
     
  20. LHB1

    LHB1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Houston
    Quote by Combat-wombat: "an attack on my age or maturity".

    Combat-wombat,
    Don't twist my words. I did not attack your age or maturity. I said your comments reflect immaturity and lack of sufficient real world experience. To me, they still do!

    Good shooting and be safe.
    LB
     
  21. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,683
    Oops, I see how that could've been taken that way. I meant that there needs to be more armed citizens to protect soceity.
     
  22. NavajoNPaleFace

    NavajoNPaleFace Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Messages:
    566
    Location:
    Too Dang Hot, Arizona
    My bad....sorry.
     
  23. Bruce H

    Bruce H Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,624
    Location:
    North Mo.
    There are several people in prison who shouldn't be. Everybody that shoots at police during the comission of a crime should die on the spot. No hostage negotiations or touchy feely give up and we won't hurt you.
     
  24. Nightfall

    Nightfall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    WA
    Perhaps a better solution than reducing the use of the death penalty would be raising the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt"? I also wonder how many of the death penalty cases mentioned where the executed was later found innocent are cases that had convictions before the advent of DNA evidence, with the change coming from technology not available at the time?
     
  25. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    Once again, we're far more concerned about the criminals than their victims.

    I'd like to suggest we worry about the criminals after all the victims have been appropriately taken care of.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page