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Yet Another Statistic: Abused Woman + Restraining Order - CCW = Dead Woman

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by damien, Jul 10, 2008.

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  1. damien

    damien Member

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    Personally, I think any state that does not issue CCWs should be financially liable when something like this happens.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/1049725,stab071008.article

    Cops: Man accused of stabbing wife to death in Lincolnshire lured her to parking lot with a note

    July 10, 2008

    BY DAN ROZEK Staff Reporter

    A Waukegan man charged with fatally stabbing his estranged wife had left a note on her car to lure her to a meeting in the Lincolnshire parking lot where he attacked her, Lake County authorities said today.

    After she was stabbed once in the right shoulder, 31-year-old Adelina Weber staggered into a nearby hotel and asked for aid before collapsing, prosecutors said during a bond hearing for Clarence J. Weber Jr.

    “She said, 'Help me, I‚m dying,'” Lake County Assistant State’s Attorney Jeffrey Pavletic recounted.

    A judged denied bond for 58-year-old Clarence Weber, who was arrested Tuesday in northwest Indiana. He was taken into custody three days after he allegedly attacked his wife because he was upset that she had filed for divorce and had obtained an order of protection barring him from contacting her.

    Weber — who served prison time in Florida for attempting to kill his first wife in 1989 — could face a death sentence if he is convicted of the first-degree murder charges he faces in the stabbing death of his second wife, Lake County State’s Attorney Michael Waller said after the hearing.

    “We’ll make that decision after further investigation,” Waller said.

    While being questioned by police, Weber admitted he stabbed his wife when he became enraged while talking to her on July 5 in the hotel parking lot, Pavletic said.

    That meeting came just three days after Adelina Weber filed for divorce from her husband of six years. The couple had two children together, while Adelina Weber had another child from a previous relationship.

    Authorities said Clarence Weber hinted to an acquaintance in Chicago before the slaying that he planned to leave the area abruptly.

    “You won’t see me after the 4th,” Pavletic quoted Weber as saying.

    Police found two notes in Adelina Weber’s car they believe were left by her husband, requesting that they meet to talk about their marriage, Pavletic said.

    Adelina Weber showed a co-worker one note on July 2 and said it was from her husband. She told the co-worker her husband opposed a divorce, in part because he didn’t want to pay child support, Pavletic said in court.

    A few hours before the murder, a witness saw Clarence Weber arguing loudly with a woman in the parking lot near the Lincolnsire restaurant where Adelina Weber worked, Pavletic said.

    After Weber’s arrest, police found clothes in his car that were stained with blood. Tests are underway to determine if the blood is his wife’s.

    A surveillance camera at a North Chicago gas station shows Clarence Weber there early on July 5, while surveillance video from an ATM machine near O’Hare Airport shows him there little more than an hour after his wife’s slaying, Pavletic said.

    Before her murder, Adelina Weber had told family members she was scared of her husband, Pavletic said.

    “The victim has expressed fears of the defendant and wished to cut all ties with him,” Pavletic said.

    Adelina Weber had obtained an order of protection against her husband in May, which barred him from contacting her.

    Two days later, the couple’s Waukegan home burned down in a fire that injured Clarence Weber, who was the only person in the house at the time. Waukegan police and fire investigators have labeled the fire a possible arson, though no charges have been filed.

    Before the fire, Clarence Weber allegedly had written on the walls of the home “I love you, don’t leave me,‚‚ Pavletic said in court.

    Wearing blue jail fatigues, his ankles shackled and his wrists cuffed to a waist belt, Weber stood silently during the bond hearing.

    He spoke only when Judge Raymond Collins asked if he could afford a private lawyer.

    “No, sir,” he replied.
     
  2. ZombieHunter

    ZombieHunter Member

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    So it seems paper doesn't stop knives either...who would have thunk?

    Thoughts are with the family :/
     
  3. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    I personally think states should require a "Miranda" statement each time RO is issued. The statement would tell the beneficiary of a RO that it is not bullet proof. It will not protect them from the perp. The police are not under obligation to protect them from the perp. Personal protection is their responsibility.

    Since we are in fantasy land, I'd also prefer courts be compelled to provide information on personal defense courses including shooting courses and CCH classes.
     
  4. damien

    damien Member

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    Fine with me, but the real problem is that this still will not let the abused woman obtain a CCW in Illinois.
     
  5. RioShooter

    RioShooter Member

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    After obtaining an order of protection, why do women then meet with the men from whom they want to be protected? :what:
     
  6. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    True statement but with a Miranda statement the State of Illinois is on record as saying "we will not protect you; you are responsible for protecting yourself; and we will see to it you can not protect yourself." Illinois is just like other states. Things will change when people get fed up.
     
  7. tigre

    tigre Member

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    Okay, obviously this is horrible, and nobody deserves anything like this, but if she knew this before they got married:
    then I'm not sure her own safety was really her biggest priority. That plus the fact that she voluntarily met with him alone in an insecure location. You can't save people from themselves.

    And yes, laws preventing people from legally defending themselves are an outrage. But I can tell you, as a woman, if I'd just split up with an abusive partner I'd be carrying, permit or no permit. They could send me to jail if they wanted to, but I'd be alive.
     
  8. misANTHrope

    misANTHrope Member

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    I yield to Lawdog's words of wisdom:

    http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/05/meditations-on-paper-armour.html
     
  9. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    Good question.

    Why does a women marry a guy who tried to off his first wife?
     
  10. Grizzly Adams

    Grizzly Adams Member

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    Lawdog is one smart dude!
     
  11. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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  12. rino451

    rino451 Member

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    Sad... I never knew ATM cameras ran all the time.
     
  13. machinisttx

    machinisttx Member

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    I fail to see how or where the state is at fault. She voluntarily met with him after filing for divorce and a protective order. She already knew he was violent.

    HER choices led to her death, not those of the state. If she'd had better decision making skills, she wouldn't have married the guy in the first place, and at the very least wouldn't have met with him after he had already become violent. Either way she would still be alive.

    Her fault, not the state's.
     
  14. 3KillerBs

    3KillerBs Member

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    :banghead:

    Given the above, ...

    Why? Why? Why!?! Why would she have gone to meet him?

    I swear that when it comes to relationships a large number of my fellow women don't have the brains God gave gophers.

    CCW is irrelevant here. She should have called the police, told them he'd violated the restraining order, and had them meet him in that parking lot to do whatever it is that police do with people violate restraining orders.

    I expect I'll take criticism for "blaming the victim" but when you walk into something that way you deserve to take some of the blame for the consequences.

    Meeting a guy you're afraid of while carrying a gun in case he tries something would be dumb enough. Meeting a guy you're afraid of while unarmed and helpless, without even taking a friend along to be a witness, ...

    I just can't find the words for that one.
     
  15. jagugator

    jagugator Member

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    The really sad part is that even after attempting to kill his first wife and killing his second wife there will be a crazy woman out there that will fall in love with him and marry him while he is behind bars. Although at least she will be safe from him sort of.
     
  16. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    This is not the case we need to push for CCW in Illinois. Nothing about it suggests that MS Weber wanted a CCW or even feared for her life enough not to meet her estranged husband.

    We need a case where someone had a firearm, needed it, but was unable to use it because it was unloaded and in a case per Illinois law.

    Unfortunately orders of protection are routinely ignored by both the respondent and the protected party when it's convenient for them to do so. I'm sure that MS Weber didn't think she was walking to her death when she met her estranged husband, but that doesn't change the fact that she knowingly violated the OOP. As far as I'm concerned, she made a poor choice, but it was her choice. She paid the ultimate price. Sad, but I have no sympathy for her. I saw too many protected parties voluntarily have contact with the people they have OOPs against in 22 years as a police officer here to think anything more then it's sad her kids are without their mother.

    Jeff
     
  17. JackBurtonJr

    JackBurtonJr Member

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    They caught the guy a few blocks from my home...
     
  18. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Probably for the same reason some women align themselves with men anyone else can see at a glance are utterly unworthy of them.

    True; the state of Illinois, however, prevents people from legally exercising the intrinsic human choice of self-defense. She did, indeed, make poor decisions, and may well not have chosen to exercise the choice to defend herself; the fact remains, however, she was prevented by law even from considering self-defense.

    Yep. A restraining order is like the Constitution: it keeps us safe only insofar as it's well and truly respected.
     
  19. RPCVYemen

    RPCVYemen Member

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    I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but I am not at all convinced a handgun or a howitzer would have made even the slightest difference here.

    The victim in this case is so scared of her husband that she gets an order of protection barring him from even contacting her. Then he leaves a couple of notes on her car saying that he wants to talk about their marriage, so she agrees to meet with him and talk?

    I am not in any way blaming or disparaging the victim. But it seems to me that her actions don't reflect a sense of self/state of mind that would have permitted her to use a CCW weapon, even if she had one.

    Guns are not magic wands - they require training and a certain mindset to use.

    Domestic violence is tragic and sad, and often very complicated. The perpetrators of the violence often seem to pick victims who blame themselves from the violence.

    I had a friend who was a former LEO, and his experiences was that the greatest danger in handling a domestic violence call was when the victim attacked the officer who was trying to protect her (usually her) from the perpetrator. He said he had scars on his back from one of those attacks, and he learned to never turn his back on either party in a domestic violence call.

    I have a friend who burned out after years of counseling women at a shelter. Her general experience was that it took an incredible amount of work to the the women to take action to leave her relationship, and then the woman woman would usually jump back into another abusive relationship almost immediately.

    Let me make it very clear that I am not blaming the victim - obviously someone who returns to an abusive relationship was horribly harmed at some earlier time int their lives - probably when they were young and vulnerable, and unable to defend themselves.

    But I am saying that I have real doubts as to how much of a difference CCW would make in many, probably most cases of domestic violence.

    Mike
     
  20. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Right, you don't go meet people on whom you have filed a restraining order. It sort of violates the whole idea of the restraining order to violate it yourself, voluntarily. Doing so means the spouse in question is also in violation of it and hence potentially subject to arrest as a result.

    The restraining order seemed to be working just fine had the woman not gone out of her way to defeat it.

    Additionally, there is no indication that had she had a gun that it would have made any difference. As noted above, the woman apparently wasn't of the mindset anyway. She had a restraining order against the gun and apparently went to see him unarmed in any fashion. So she doesn't exactly sound like the type to prepare for conflict.

    Sure, had she had a gun, she might have defended herself, or not. The same holds for having a club, pepper spray, a knife, martial arts training, armor, or even a defensive mindset.
     
  21. Dumptruck

    Dumptruck Member

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    Darwin award? I know that is cold but she knew how he was and made the choice to meet up with him.

    A woman here in WV was recently shot and killed by her abusive boyfriend. She had been dating him for 4 years (had a history of domestive violence but stayed with him) and had a 2 year old child with him. At a certain point, even if you have a death wish, you should be thinking about your child's future.

    The woman went running into a Taco Bell, jumped the counter and was screaming "he has a gun". The boyfriend came in with no gun showing, waited in line, got to the counter, spotted her and killed her.

    I just don't see how these women have no sense of self-preservation.
     
  22. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Standing Wolf said;

    Wrong!!! She had many other means of self defense available to her. The most effective one being the ability to stay away from estranged husband. She voluntarily met with him. The best way to stay out of a fight is not to be there when it happens. Nothing in the Illinois Complied Statutes forced her to meet him in violation of the OOP. The state denied her what was possibly (and I mean possibly, because the mere presence of a firearm doesn't guarantee anyone's safety, without the mindset and physical ability to use it, it's just so much dead weight) the second most effective means of defending herself.

    Double Naught Spy said;

    You would think so, but in reality, people have routine contact with spouses or partners they have restraining orders against all the time. Often the couple moves back in together within days of the OOP being issued, and it only becomes an issue when they get in another fight. I sent a poor, dumb alcoholic loser to prison for three years for violating an OOP once. It seems he and his ex were both alcoholics and living on SSI. When his check would come in at the first of the month, she would get all loving on him in the bar, take him home and everything would be blissful until they drank up his SSI check. Then there would be a fight over not enough money for booze, she would call the police and he'd run out the door. One night we were a little quicker then usual and caught him. The law required that we arrest him and the judge gave him 3 years.

    Couples use restraining orders as a way to drag the police and the courts into their personal conflicts. Divorce lawyers use them to get leverage with the estranged spouse. Couples get back together and ignore the fact there is a valid restraining order until they fight again. The entire restraining order system is broken. It doesn't protect the people it's intended to protect and it ties up a lot of resources trying to keep people apart who really don't want to be apart.

    Jeff
     
  23. RPCVYemen

    RPCVYemen Member

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    I suspect the most of the victims of domestic violence were taught at a very young age - before they could possibly know differently - that they were not worth preserving.

    Most of them did not grow up in homes with parents who loved for them and cared for the, and then at 21 decide that they wanted to be an emotional and/or physical punching bag.

    Most of them started out with the mom and/or dad doing the battering before they hit grade school. Usually the abuse was blamed on the child, "if I am good enough tomorrow, he won't hit me again." After a decade or so of that, many don't have a sense of self preservation.

    Mike
     
  24. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    .

    No doubt, but while it may happen all the time, it doesn't make is smart or safe.
     
  25. jlbpa

    jlbpa Member

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    ahh she married him............ We are all responsible for the beds we make. No more No less.
     
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