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You can Mail C&R handguns now (between FFL's)

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Shadow 7D, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Just got off the phone with Classifications and Mailablity for my local PO, he said that he checked and it seems that a C&R (FFL III) can now mail C&R's and receive them.

    Cool, here is the link
    http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

     
  2. browneu

    browneu Member

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    Interesting.

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
     
  3. smalls

    smalls Member

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    Haven't FFL's always been able to ship guns?
     
  4. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    NO

    Dealers, Importers, and Manufactures...
    IOW
    every class except FFL III, Collector of Curio's and Relics
     
  5. smalls

    smalls Member

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    You're right, I was thinking of recieving. They could receive C&R guns at they'd address.
     
  6. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    This is darned awesome news. Paying for the 2 day shipping was always what made picking up C&R handguns a hassle for me. That and the fact that guns require a signature (and I'm at work on weekdays), and the local UPS office is closed on Saturdays and doesn't open until 10am.

    Post office is open at 8am which I can get to before work, and its open until noon on Saturday. All around, just a lot simpler for me.
     
  7. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    NO, smalls, you couldn't receive them EITHER (language was BETWEEN)
    now you can, now you can get it express or priority registered, no leaving it on your door step, no fudged sig, it's kept in a safe at the post office (registered mail that is, priory, express, well, those rules apply...)
     
  8. hAkron

    hAkron Member

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    I have my C&R (though, I must admit I've only used it once or twice). I'm a little confused on this topic. Before this new ruling, the only way I could receive a shipment was 2 day UPS, but now it is legal to have it sent via the cheaper express mail? Is that what you are saying? If so, that's great news!
     
  9. DMK

    DMK Member

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    That's interesting. I've had many C&R guns mailed to me by FFLs.
     
  10. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Read the emphasized section again:

    That doesn't say C&R handguns can be shipped to other C&R holders. It speaks of C&R handguns that are of MUSEUM INTEREST being sent, in effect, to a museum. The paragraph RIGHT BEFORE IT, including the part I BOLDED, below, says:

    The paragraph/section BEFORE the one shown in bold disputes the original claim that started this discussion. Just because it's C&R doesn't mean that it's a firearm "certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics." The citation above say only the C&R weapons that are also ANTIQUE can be mailed.

    Nothing has changed for those of us with a C&R FFL...

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  11. TonyT

    TonyT Member

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    Section 12.1.5 is confusing as it states that shipments can be made between C&R's PROVIDING THEY MEET SECTION 12.1.1g AS ANTIQUE FIREARMS. 12.1.1g refers to definition of C&R. 12.1.1h refers to definition of antique guns.
    I beleive this explicitly only permits mailing of ANTIQUE HANDGUNS between C&R holders.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  12. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    And the reason for that, I think, is that ANTIQUE firearms are NOT considered firearms by the USPS or the ATF. That's why some businesses can sell antique weapons without an FFL, and pawnshop without FFLs can handle the older stuff. (I think Sportsman's Guide, which sells many different sports-related things, sometimes offers Antique guns at really premium prices...)


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  13. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Ok
    2 things
    Major C&R houses are using mail now
    The classifications guy, contacted the ATF and the ATF said it's all good now (between all classes of FFL's)

    the question on the language has been taken by some to mean that: ONLY those guns on the C&R list, not those C&R by virtue of age are allowed...
     
  14. CZguy

    CZguy Member

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    Forgive me for being slow, but are you saying that a C&R holder can use USPS to ship a fifty year old gun to another C&R holder?
     
  15. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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  16. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    I'm glad someone checked with ATF, as the following, straight from the cited regs, says otherwise -- which was my reason for disputing the original claim. (I will check with the ATF myself, to be sure -- as I'd hate to get in hot water over someone else's misreading or misinterpretation of the regulations.)

    a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

    I don't have any C&R handguns at present, but if I go that route in the future, and the seller is an 03-FFL holder, that'll be a real money saver. (Priority Mail, Insured is BIG TIME cheaper than UPS or FedEx priority air.
     
  17. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    They really need to clean up their wording. They mention referencing 12.1.1g for the definition of antique firearm but that's actually 12.1.1h.

    12.1.2a as pointed out by Walt seems to imply that only antiques can be mailed between C&R holders.

    12.1.2b then points out that C&R's of museum interest may be accepted as well.

    To my understanding though that is how C&R firearms get on the actual list of named firearms. The CZ-82 for example isn't 50 years old but a museum curator had it added as it was manufactured in (and marked as such) a country that no longer existed - Czechoslovakia.

    I'm personally going to hold off for a bit before I go USPS for any C&R handguns, but it is actually sounding like C&R's actually named on the C&R list may be mailable but guns that are C&R simply by virtue of being more than 50 years old are not.
     
  18. TonyT

    TonyT Member

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    It would be prudent to have the ATF interpretation in writing.
     
  19. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    Not sure if it really matters what the ATF says, we need to understand USPS definitions and rules.
     
  20. stolivar

    stolivar Member

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    under the Post office

    Nothing has changed. You can not mail between C&R's. What the ATF says is not true. They are talking about mailing between museums.

    Better get that in writing bud.



    steve the mailman
     
  21. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    Nothing has changed. You bolded the wrong parts. Look at it again:

     
  22. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    It looks to me like they wanted to pretend to make a change without actually changing anything. ANYONE can mail (USPS) an antique firearm (made before 1 Jan 1899) TO ANYONE, no FFL's required. I have mailed several antique guns with no problems to fellow collectors who have NO license at all.

    So, no change.

    The second section seems to make a change, but clearly applies ONLY to A firearm certified to be a C&R. A firearm, not a class or type of firearm and no mention of any fifty year rule. So EACH firearm you mail to another C&R holder would have to be accompanied by a museum certificate. Think your Nagant revolver would qualify?

    I think it is a slick non-relaxation, possibly intended to entrap and cause the arrest of naive collectors. Do I detect the fine hand of the White House in this?

    Jim
     
  23. stolivar

    stolivar Member

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    I see this all the time

    People just read what they want to believe instead of what it really says.




    steve
     
  24. CZguy

    CZguy Member

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    You're probably both correct.
     
  25. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Personally,

    1) I don't think the White House really cares about C&R transfers through the mail, and the ATF has more than enough to do in just monitoring 01-FFLs and the flow of weapons being sold to Mexico; and

    2) people almost ALWAYS see what they want to see and read what they want to read, even though the real world evidence may point to the contrary -- that's basic psychology. Expectations will often shape what you "see".

    I've had a C&R FFL for almost 15 years, and I've yet to see or hear from an ATF agent on any issue that I didn't initiate. I have also never talked to a C&R license holder who has had a different experience. If there was an issue with mailing C&R weapons -- as an earlier poster noted -- the investigation would probably be handled by a USPS Postal Inspector, because it would be a postal regulation being mangled, and not an ATF issue.

    Point 2, above, seems especially true -- and you can see it both in the (arguably misinterpreted) version of the regs cited in the original post, and in the comments that attributed the "change" to the willful action of the current Administration in Washington. It's hard for a layman to interpret legal language, and federal ATF or Postal regulations are particularly obtuse. Just interpreting the U.S. Constitution can be a chore -- and it's almost never as simple as "the plain language" seems to suggest.

    You may feel that the Federal Government is out to get you -- and you may be right -- but if the Feds already have enough time, resources, and personnel to try to trip up C&R license holders, things are probably far, far worse than you ever thought possible, and you're probably toast, already...
     
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