You might want to rethink your Home Defense gun

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by GunnyUSMC, Apr 8, 2019.

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  1. Browning

    Browning Member

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  2. Gridley

    Gridley Member

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    I think a lot of people look at their accuracy shooting silhouette targets on a known-distance range, knock a bit off that, and figure that will be their accuracy in a real fight. If that were the case even a modest shooter like myself would have no problem putting almost every round into their target at indoor distances.

    Real-world evidence suggests that isn't the case. Some factors are obvious. Most target shooting isn't at targets that have cover, concealment, or are moving. Based on times I have done this, my accuracy suffers significantly. I still would have put more than 3 or 4 out of 30 rounds on target.

    But I expect most importantly, most people have no experience shooting at a target that is shooting back. I'm happy to say I have no such experience, but I expect it would massively degrade my accuracy.

    I did an exercise a friend of mine suggested some years back. We both started holstered, facing a silhouette target at about 25 feet. On command we were both supposed to move laterally while drawing and firing. First round *on target* was the winner. At that piddling range with a full-size handgun I missed several times - because I was trying to go fast (at that range with that gun, even then, I'd normally be able to make every round a headshot). And my life wasn't even on the line, nor even my pride - we're talking a 'beer bet' here. But I *was* trying to shoot before someone else did. That really opened my eyes as to just how much better I needed to get, and how much degradation in my marksmanship I could expect under stress.
     
  3. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I didn’t say I didn’t know them but I often opened the door for strangers. Some of them little girls selling cookies, some carrying what I suspected was the pizza I had ordered, others bringing packages. At times it was even opened to people trying to sell me crap or guide me to salvation.
     
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  4. rdnktrkr

    rdnktrkr Member

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    We tried a drill where we ran around a tree about 10yrds from our table and then shot a mag at paper plate targets, 1/2 mag acuracy was rare from your heart rate being so high. I hope I never get the chance to find out what my heart rate would be with someone shooting at me
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  5. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    So the ex-husband fired approximately 50 rounds? What on earth was he shooting and did he reload?
     
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  6. 40-82

    40-82 Member

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    [



    I had a chance years ago to watch a police training exercise. This was in the old days of the Smith Model 10 and the PPC. One of the stages concentrated on during that day was twelve rounds in twenty-five seconds.at a standard silhouette target, no speed loaders allowed. It wasn't unusual to see officers miss the complete silhouette fifty percent of the time and struggle to make the time. Ordinary scores rarely exceeded more than sixty-five to seventy-five percent hits. Maybe two of the sixty or so officers were hitting in the eighty percent range with bullet holes scattered all over the silhouette with only one real shooter in the mix. After fifteen or so seconds he was standing around with a holstered revolver, and you could have covered his group with a teacup. Instead of the jerky movements of the others, he looked like the slowest man out there, running at what appeared half-steam, almost bored other than the wicked smile at the end.

    This kind of shooting couldn't have had the pressure of a life and death situation, but still the nervousness was palpable. They shot in front of their peers. Scores were recorded. The range officer screamed almost nonstop. An accident on his watch was going to be a real black on his career.

    From my limited experience, which mostly amounts to recounted stories, and the small amount I've personally seen and done, throw the tiniest amount of emotion in, and ordinarily expected levels of marksmanship disappear for most of us. So how do we prepare for that?

    One answer is to accept that you're going to fall to pieces, get the largest capacity weapon you can carry, and back it with as many high cap magazines as you can carry. Likely, you're going to face the encounter at a disadvantage from the start, your antagonist starting gun in hand. Unless you've spent an awful lot of time practicing your draw, you're unlikely to be able to get a shot off in under two seconds. How many rounds can your opponent put in the air against you in those two seconds? Seven? Eight? More?

    If your accepted strategy is that you can't hit under those emotional pressures, and your first two seconds is dedicated to filling the air with flying bullets, how many more chances have you just given him? Criminals are documented as on average being notoriously poor shots, but I wouldn't rate chances of surviving four or five seconds at typical gunfight ranges under the fire of a high capacity semi-auto as good.

    Knowing what you need to make the hit, or even if you can, under the emotional pressures, the available light, the distance, and the size of the target seems enormously important. If your opponent is shooting from good cover, and you don't think you can hit what little is exposed, it might be a better response not to shoot at all but to dive for cover or run.

    If I'm presented with a full-sized human target at room-length distances, I'm going to believe I can hit him. When nothing discernable happens, I'm going to believe I made a hit but under the conditions it wasn't evident. There seems to be an enormous psychological difference in believing you're finishing with insurance shots rather than the panicked, "I missed. What do I do next?" I'm not sure how you can fully prepare for this phenomenon without having seen a lot of things hit, knowing it exists may be a start. When the counting is done, if a few of my shots proved misses, that just means the delivery system was human and not a machine. Confidence, is extraordinarily important, provided that confidence is based upon a realistic assessment of skills and not arrogance.

    Shooting well under pressure is a learned experience. It's an important first step to appreciate what pressure does to you, but I don't think you should stop there, accepting that a high level performance just isn't possible. There's no guarantee in real world conditions that you'll see the threat coming and get the chance to fire the first shot., but if you're serious about staying alive you want to train until you believe you can make that first shot count. Every miss reduces your capacity to fight, every second gives your assailant more time to kill you.

    Don't mistake any of this as speaking against high capacity weapons. I just suggest that the bulk of training be placed on quick, accurate shooting and not assume that filling the air with misses will solve your problems. Suppose you hold a weapon with a twenty round magazine and you have a couple of spares. How long would it take a halfway trained man to expend every round? Doing so might put your opponents to flight and solve everything. If it doesn't, you're holding an empty weapon, while trying to remember typical police response time in your area.

    If you need a bit of a confidence bolster, remember this: we're Americans. We've had a long and bloody history. Those men who shot straight lived to have children. You're born of that tradition.
     
  7. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    That shootout was between Sidney Averett and David Johnson. The shootout was reported to have happened through a wall. The news reports and 911 transcript lack details, but from reports, it appears both men were shooting through a wall. Averett was hit twice in the arm and leg in the hallway through the bedroom wall. After that he apparently went to his car to retrieve more handguns and re-entered the house. Johnson and the woman then escaped through the window of the back bedroom they were hiding in. If Averett was dead in the living room, according to the coroner's report, he shot himself there under the chin the third and fatal time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  8. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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  9. george29

    george29 Member

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  10. FAS1

    FAS1 Member

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    I'm comfortable with my Glock 17 and a couple spare magazines stored with it at my bedside in the role of my primary home defense gun.

    a69218e0a7991ee21bb651b83c6f3da7.jpg

    There is a loaded 12 gauge and rifle in my big safe and that is the direction my wife would go in a home invasion along with my Glock 26 (stored with the G17) in her hand and her cell phone to call 911. She can handle both long guns from a hunkered down position and I would join her there if necessary.
     
  11. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    That's the one. They never release all the info to the reporters, just the basics, due to an on going investigation. Once the investigation is over, months later, it's old news and the final reports never makes the News.
     
  12. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    So another case where the intended victim actually reloaded … news account said he fired at least 40 rounds, so he reloaded twice?

    Hope there's a takeaway for some here.
     
  13. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    That is one of those instances where someone picks up the crime scene guys 2 or 3 boxes of coffee.

    As of right now my HD setup is rather limited. 1+12+12 in 40. And not very good external security if I was going to give myself an honest rating.
     
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  14. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Member

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    Bedside is my CCW of either a G23 or G27, with a few 15 rd mags, and an AR in the closet with a few 30rd mags. LED flash on bedstand and WML on the AR.

    Agree that forewarning and having infrastructure to slow down a determined invader is wise. You don’t need to live in a bad neighborhood for this to happen. Back in about 1988 a home a mile away from us was invaded and several people (3 generations) were slaughtered. Drug dispute but wrong address (they were at the right house number but East instead of West).

    I also continue to carry inside the house until go to bed. Not just for possible home invasion but could be stray dog(s) attacking grandkids in the drive or lawn, or many other possibilities. I have many guns but my EDC and ready AR are the ones I rely on if the worst happens. Well, the WORST might be space alien invasion, but that’s what the Garand is for, right?
     
  15. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    FB_IMG_1553026789033.jpg
     
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  16. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Or 8 times in a J frame :neener:
     
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  17. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I learned some hard lessons - all those years ago on the street... The first (and in my opinion - the most important...) is that a handgun is what you use because you couldn't get to a better weapon in a close quarters fight, period. The actual results of a deadly shooting rarely seemed to involve whoever was shot simply dropping to the ground and ceasing whatever they intended to do (and that goes for victim or perpetrator... the human animal can take killing shots - but they just don't kill right away....). There really are a few folks around so dangerous that you might just have to outrun them - after hitting them a killing shot...

    My choice was then - and still is now... a 12ga shotgun every time for close quarters work - and the basic 00buck round in just 2 3/4 standard size is all that's needed for conflicts at less than 15 meters range. One good center of mass hit is pretty much a fight ender at close quarters - and that's what I'll be reaching for if I'm ever forced to defend home and family. If I lived in a rural area I'd swap that shotgun for a carbine...

    I'll say right now that I hope to never ever need it again. What you will go through afterwards won't be any fun at all - and I know what I'm talking about. Fortunately my one shooting incident was in uniform all those years ago - but I still was in and out of court for six months afterwards before the case was finally ruled a justifiable homicide... It really did take almost three years to get my head screwed back on straight though.... Coping with taking a life wasn't easy at all for me.
     
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  18. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Let me just say thank you for walking that dark valley in defense of your community.
     
  19. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    CROSSING THE LINE


    The thing is. You will never know if you can cross that line until you come to it.

    Some will never be able to.

    For some it will be very hard.

    For others, not so hard.
    I will tell you this. Taking another human life is easy, living with it is the hard part.
    I do not look down on those that can not cross that line, just the ones that can cross it too easy.
     
  20. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    It was a case of using what was available. He had a service pistol on his duty belt and what I would imagine was at least 2 extra magazines. Because he had at least 40 rounds, he could use the tactic of shooting at Averett through the wall. Johnson's circumstances of having a lot of ammo and no innocents immediately in the backstop allowed him to spray the bedroom wall in hopes of hitting Averett. It was an extremely inefficient tactic, but one that he could afford to use because of the circumstances. He managed to hit Averett but only with marginal effects on the arm and leg.

    I don't care to re-do Johnson's decisions. He survived. A different person in different circumstances without more than 40 rounds on a duty belt would be advised to choose a tactic more suitable for their circumstances. For example, one would not need to wait to flee out the bedroom window. Another possible tactic would be to get a visual on the target -- even getting close to the target can be a good tactic.

    If engaging targets through walls is often a good tactic, I wonder how much training in shoot houses involves engaging targets through perpendicular and oblique walls or through corners with handguns.
     
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  21. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    You aren't representing the situation truthfully by saying that Dep. Johnson could choose the tactic of shooting through the wall because blah blah blah and you should feel bad for implying that Dep. Johnson choose some sort of spray and pray tactic "in hope of hitting Averett"

    Averett started firing through the wall at Dep. Johnson. Dep. Johnson had no choice but to put fire back into the wall.

    Really? That's what you are doing while someone is putting rounds through a wall at you? Okay then superman.
     
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  22. shafter

    shafter Member

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    When someone kicks the door in there isn't any warning, so whatever you choose, it better be handy.
     
  23. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I don't regret a single life I took or had a hand in taking overseas. My regrets are for the screw ups made that cost lives that didn't need to be taken. I have said for years I imagine it is harder for a police officer to take a life of a community member than military shootings in wartime. Purely subjective observation based on seeing things from both sides.
     
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  24. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    IMHO in order of least to most important:

    1. Cameras so you can see what's going on before answering the door
    2. Several large aggressive dogs
    3. Well placed firearms, ready to go
    4. A Plan

    Go ahead, kick it in ... My dogs (inside the house) alert at outsiders when they are approx 50 yards away (outside the house) ...

    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FELdnsm-5oqk%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg

    And they are thanked after each and every alert :)
     
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  25. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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    After adding the red-dot optics, this became my home defense pistol. The optics co-witnesses the low-profile fixed sights and speed up acquiring sight pictures. Of course, my carry pistol is always on when I put on my pants.

    Tested it during several outings to an outdoor range. Like how well it shoots extended or close to the body. Transitions easier/faster than my AR15 carbine.

    Door chime sensors activated during the day plus motion detectors activated downstairs when we sleep. Gives time to put on ear protection.

    Won't be clearing the house, just manning the funnel of the stairs to the top floor.

    cz_bren_805_pistol.jpg
     
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