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You might want to rethink your Home Defense gun

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by GunnyUSMC, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    Hitting what you're aiming at is trolling. Good to know.
    One need only look at how many rounds are expended by police to realize just how important marksmanship is and doubly so when you're alone. You need to be accurate.

    I don't carry anything anymore. I never bothered renewing my permit when it expired years ago. Just not worth the hassle.
     
  2. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    Shooting incidents I've been privy to most often have two things in common---they occur very quickly and most often, unexpectedly.
    Slow and deliberate aimed fire would be a luxury
    .
     
  3. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    You still don't understand what this topic is about. I guessing you most likely haven't read most of the post that others have made. We are not discussing about carrying weapons. This is about what one uses as a defense weapon in their home.
    You keep spouting off about hitting what you are aiming at like we'er at a Bulls eye match shooting at paper. You have clearly shown that you have no clue as to what you are talking about and that you don't even know what this topic is about.
     
  4. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    I understand it quite well. I wasn't the one who said that these encounters happen quickly, nor was I the one who made a smarmy remark about choices in carry guns. I did question the wisdom of trying to simulate the pattern of birdshot in your own home, using a handgun, and suggested that perhaps being more accurate was a good idea. And if you're defending your home, I'm guessing you're not actively running around, running and gunning. My strategy has always been gather up family, lock us all in one room call the cops and point the gun at the door. Anyone who comes in without a badge is in trouble. I'm quite confident in my ability to hit minute-of-door-frame targets with almost any handgun, even if I'm rattled and drowsy.
    I'm sorry if my suggestion of being accurate offends your delicate sensibilities.
     
  5. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    There are none so blind as those who will not see. You have clearly demonstrated no knowledge on the topic at hand despite reality. I will say this in closing. I spent over 2 years as a designated marksman. My class was 25 soldiers with exceptional marksmanship abilities. Our favorite game was shooting a chemlight that is half an inch wide at 300 or more meters using non magnified optics. The next person would shoot the same chemlight if it was still on the target. On the other hand I was involved in firefights where I have fired over 200 rounds in target suppression from my weapon.
     
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  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Spoken like someone who has never been in a true fight/flight situation. All anyone here who has faced that situation is saying is that it's not like shooting on the range, especially the first time. The military conducts stress inoculation training with things like the high obstacles on the confidence course, the 200 foot night rappel in Ranger school and many other training events that are designed to put the soldier in a situation where their life is actually in danger in a controlled environment and after all of that many people soil themselves or lose control of their bladder the first time. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with those people, it's just how the human body sometimes reacts to the Adrenalin dump.

    What kind of stress inoculation training have you done to prepare yourself for that moment?
     
  7. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    Your suggestion infers that we don't know how to shoot, or that we just spray and pray.
    I did 20 years in the Marine Corps where I scored Expert with the M16A1 and the A2, every time expect ones. I've been a police officer for almost 19 years. I qualify each year and score higher then 80% of the officers on my 680 man dept.
    I have been if fire fights at close quarters and have engaged the enemy out to ranges of 600 meters. I have been shot at, but never been shot. I thank God for that.
    Most think they know how they will react when it comes time to pull the trigger when they have to shoot another person. But they will never truly know until it happens. There are some of us here that have been tested and know what we will do. This does not make us better men, just men with more knowledge about ourselves. I pray to God that those that have not been tested, never have to be.
     
  8. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    I didn't imply you don't know how to shoot. Your Expert qualification would seem to back up your assertion, unless I missed something and Expert now means empty your magazine in the general direction of the target.

    I'm simply saying that hitting your target is what you need to be doing. I'm not suggesting a home defense situation isn't stressful. I'm not suggesting you only need a musket because no other shots could be required. I'm not suggesting you not use a rifle and a drum mag if that's your thing.
    I merely said, hit what you're aiming at.

    Whatever other assumptions you want to draw from that are on you.
     
  9. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Clean, you are not really contributing. Repeating the same phrase indicates that. If you gave up carry as a hassle then that also indicates a lack of credibility. So spare us, the uninformed commentary.
     
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  10. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    Even when they’re sending rounds into your doorframe?

    False confidence is better than no confidence. Or is it the other way around? Maybe it was motivation. I don’t remember.

    Having been in a handful of handgun and rifle fights, of varying intensity, I think the best one can hope for in an intense situation requiring immediate action is a solid base of training that allows you operate on autopilot and get 50% of your rounds to hit. The closer you are the % goes up. The farther away it decreases.

    I hope I never have to do it again. I hope I don’t have to do it rattled AND drowsy.

    “Oh yeah, I’ll just shoot people. It’ll be easy. Just don’t miss.” Riiiight.
     
  11. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    I thought this thread was about home defense, not carry. At least thats what the Gunny said.
    But if I weren't honest and said I still carried my gun, would that make you feel better?
     
  12. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    No one has claimed to be an expert. But it is clear that you lack experience.
    You keep telling us that all we have to do is hit what we aim at like we don’t know this. What makes you think that we never thought about that?
    You have a plan to get your family into your bedroom and call the police if someone were ever to break into your home. You plan has you using you bedroom doorway as a fatal funnel if the intruders come after you.
    But what gun do you use. Do you have enough ammo to hold off two or three intruders? Maybe you hit the first one coming through the door. What do you do when the other intruders start shooting through the wall in an attempt to kill you?
    Here’s another question. When was the last time you woke your family up in the middle of the night and ushered them into your bedroom, and doing this with the lights off and carrying a gun? If you haven’t, give it a try and see how smooth it goes.
    Have you ever thought about what you would do if you were sitting in your favorite chair watching TV in the evening and someone kicks in your door?
    This is what this topic is about. It’s to get people to think about what they would do in the unlikely event that a home invasion or break in would happen.
    Do you have a plan?
    Practice your plan
    Can you get to your gun?
    Will that gun sustain you if the fight that last more then six shots.
    Those of us that have seen the elephant know that when the rounds start to fly, it becomes a **** show and no matter how much you train, it will never be enough.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  13. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    That would be a good start--when you can do it. But don't count on it.

    You need to think that one through carefully, and consider the potential results of having posted those words publicly.

    That kind of precision won't cut it.

    One cannot rapidly determine the locations of the small, critical hidden, internal body parts necessary to effect a timely physical stop, so one cannot try "aiming at" them. Hitting them is a matter of chance, and it will likely take a number for shots, fired very rapidly.
     
  14. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Here is a well publicized home invasion where a woman took on three home invaders in Gwinnett Cty GA about three years ago. Notice how fast the action was and if you look on the second angle video below, you will see that she shot to slidelock. She was holding the phone in one hand and shooting with the other. She survived, a bad guy did not and the other two fled. In her case, she had precious few seconds to figure out what to do as she was apparently in her bedroom and came out to repel the invasion.



    Different angle


    Here is a video of her explaining her actions.


    And here is an attempted home invasion with four critters trying a home invasion and one has a shotgun apparently. If you were at the door, at two feet separation, it would be difficult to respond with careful aimed fire even if you had a firearm at the door and were trying to shut the door against the assault.

     
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  15. drband

    drband Member

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    A sobering account. Good thing the woman kept her wits about her.
     
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  16. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to add, someone who is confident in their ability, sitting in the chair should read what our members with combat experience said. If you don't have that, taking some intensive FOF classes with realistic simulations of such gives you insight into the difficulties. As Kleanbore can attest, some can be humbling and even painful. Nothing like being shot to 'pieces' with sims, Code Eagle or even close up Airsoft. You can bleed and have a neat set of bruises to explain to the wife (Are you crazy, you old man) or colleagues in the gym. For shotgun fans, run a competition with one or a class. Guess what, you can miss, the gun jams, you jam or short stroke the gun. You run out of ammo. Carrying extra ammo in your birthday suit is fun. Did that at the NTI. Now we didn't go naked but wore a big sheet like poncho. Got a coach gun and a box of shells, your house is invaded! Two guys - bang, bang. Oh, Dear, here's a third. Butt stroked him.

    Getting too old for that. My back is a tragedy. Try it though.
     
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  17. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    It might take you a large number of rapidly fired shots. I don't like the idea of sending bullets whizzing through my home and my neighbors homes.
    I'll stick with accuracy. I can shoot center mass and have a fairly good chance at connecting with a vital structure without emptying magazine after magazine.
    The lady in the first video fired three rounds in the home and then emptied the rest of the magazine out the front door. The pistol in the 3rd video looks like some sort of Glock compact. Not sure which model, but the point is she took aim and almost had a headshot on the first round.
    Her first shot was aimed fairly well, the next two not quite so well, but she was moving and apparently didn't see one of the bad guys nearly run over her as he went out towards the back sliding door.

    Good thing she was in Georgia. In some other states, shooting wildly out your front door at someone trying to run away will catch you a case.
     
  18. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

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    If you saw the last video with the captioned video, it had where one of the bad guys was firing at her outside of the house. The inside of the house videos make it like she was firing while they were fleeing. However, the third video where they interview her indicates something else. One of the critters shooting at her outside of the house left one or two bullet holes in the gutters because of the video cuts, I am unsure which but I think it was two. But, as previously demonstrated, when in a gunfight, the response of people is unpredictable. She could have probably shot better two handed but she could not get through to 911 and had the phone in her hand while shooting. She survived without harm--that is a win.
     
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  19. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    ok, if they were shooting at her house from outside, then I'd call it a good shoot. She didn't do the wrong thing. In fact, I think she should be praised for her careful shooting inside the house.
     
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  20. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Yes, due to litigation, it is rare that people actually go on camera after such an event to explain their actions. This is one of those few cases.
     
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  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    Yes, it might, and that's why informed people train to react that way.
    Nor do I.
    "Accuracy" is not an appropriate measure of merit for defensive fire. What is important is the balance of speed and precision.
    Shooting at center mass is a very good idea. Your chance of "connecting with a vital structure" will have a lot to do with the number of rounds fired. "Chance" is in fact the operative word.

    And whether you shooting results in an effective stop timely will depend also upon how quickly you shoot.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  22. drband

    drband Member

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    I have no combat experience of any kind. I have two options I use for HD... a 7-shot 9mm and a 17-shot 9mm, both reliable handguns. I keep them both loaded and ready since I would likely need most or all of the rounds in a bad situation.

    I appreciate the insights shared in this thread. It's not a simple problem OR a simple answer.
     
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  23. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    ^^ And that should wrap it up..

    ..but it won't. ;)
     
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  24. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    So, here's how we know you have no skins on the wall in the whole trading bullets for lives game.

    You're talking about being able to make center of mass hits, and earlier in the thread you made some silly comment about how the bad guys can't shoot back if you make good well aimed shots.

    So, here's the skinny. Center of Mass shots don't equate to insta-death, hitting the offswitch, bang flop shots. Center of mass hits will most likely mean the guy you are donating lead to still has plenty of time to put some shots into you before he expires... If he even expires, since Center of Mass hits don't mean you've taken the bad guy out of the fight at all. There are only two things that will immediately remove an opponent from the fight: 1) disruption of the CNS above the shoulders -or- 2) massive blood pressure drop. Destroying a persons heart does not count for 2. A person can still fight for up to 15 seconds without a heart beat.

    Center of mass is taught in shooting classes for three reasons 1) It's where most of the important body parts are 2) it's the biggest body part -and- 3) It's the human body part that moves the least. That makes it the easiest body part to hit when things go rodeo, and has the added bonus of meaning those hits will likely count.. maybe. However, if you don't get a high spine hit or Aorta hit, the rest of the important bits in a center of mass shot won't put a person out of the fight right away. You can poke holes in someones lungs all day long and they will kill you dead. Take the top right off their heart and they will kill you dead before they die. Put some rounds into the top of their liver and you are just accelerating what the whiskey already started.
     
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  25. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    A sidearm (revolver or semi-auto) is what we use when you don’t have a better option in my book (no matter what the latest action movie leads you to believe...).

    I long ago learned just how terribly effective a standard riot gun is at close quarters- loaded with nothing more than 2 3/4” 00buck rounds. But any armed confrontation is still a risky event, period.
     
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