Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by daverich4, Feb 12, 2018.
Someone still watches 60 Minutes?
My feeling also. Who cares? I used to have Dish but I haven't had any live programming in about 6 years. I can stream stuff but I have to pay for it so I'm pretty selective about what I watch. I certainly wouldn't pay to watch 60 minutes.
Most programing now has some sort of political agenda, even an NFL football game. No thanks.
Post #5 asked a question about zip-ties. Post #9 offered a member's observations of zip-ties at gun shows. The last line of your post is abrasive, at best.
Your analysis is faulty.
Post 5 asked specifically:
The thrust of the question in context is whether it isn't a general practice to secure the actions of gun at gun shows.
The comment in post 9:
Is really unresponsive and irrelevant. Stubert's personal experiences can not really help us know whether or not it is a general practice to secure gun actions with zip-ties at gun shows because it offers us only information on the gun shows he personally has been to. And considering the number of gun shows held all round the country every year, that's likely a very small sample.
Stubert's response is an example of a common logical fallacy: the Hasty Generalization Fallacy:
And in fact, as some further posts establish, a correct answer to the question, "Aren't actions secured with zip ties at gun shows?" would be, "Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not." And Stubert's post neither provided the correct answer not helped arrive at the correct answer.
Further discussion of this would be off topic for this thread. If you want to discuss this with me further do so by Private Message.
I've seen non zip tied guns at gun shows. They were locked in a glass box, had a sequence of cables through multiple guns, or were trigger locked out of reach...
The last gun show I went to I didn't notice any guns zip-tied. For that matter, no one even mentioned the pistol on my belt. Of course I had emptied it before going in, but no one asked if I had.
The only point that is became an issue was when I wanted to try a holster which was the reason that I had it with me. Before trying the holster I assured the vendor that it was empty; but he didn't ask if was empty, I offered the information.
There is a possibility that none of them registered that I was wearing a holster. It was a square pouch style holster, like the one below (mine is a different size, but it is similar). I wasn't making an attempt to "sneak it in," that just happened to be the holster I was wearing and I never gave it much thought. Except that I did unload it in the parking lot before going inside. . . that just struck me as good sense; but, like I said, no one at the door even asked if I was carying a gun. Certainly would have told them if that had asked. But no, no one mentioned zip tying it, and none of the guns at the show were zip-tied.
The gun shows I've been to don't even allow an LTC holder to carry. Only police officers working security can carry (they checked at the door too). What state was this?
If that is directed to me, Oklahoma.
Gun shows I attend locally guns must be zip tied; no exceptions.
We need to leave the subject of zip-ties. When all the snippets of information are added up, all we get is that sometimes gun actions are zip-tied and sometimes they are not. And none of that contributes to a discussion of the topic of this thread.
it would be far from unheard of for a news crew to ask the parents for a fun picture for a kid, and send them a copy. Its a good way to have parents let their kids pose for these. The kids partially off camera. The parent was probable standing directly behind him. The booth guy may have been just off camera. If this was a kid left to play with a gun, it would be the focus.
The image of the young man with the handgun was a nice little bonus for 60 minutes to put before its viewers. I am sure they were all pleased they got that shot.
I don't know why we are talking about gun shows. It appeared, to me at least, that the segment in question was filmed at a firearms show such as SHOT or NRA Convention. Look at the way the guns are cabled to the table.
Could it be because it says "Gun Show" in the upper left corner of the video?
No substituting for safe behavior
I hate to be labeled a conspiracy nut,...but I believe a LOT of what we see on TV and in the media is staged propaganda.
How nice that you believe that. But of course you have no actual evidence that's true.
People believe a lot of things that are actually true.
I'll leave my tinfoil hat off and say it probably wasn't a plant. That's not how even slanted journalism works. They would have their careers would be ruined if they were found out. There are plenty of examples of people behaving badly that they don't need to do that.
But you can bet 100% that they had hours of footage of people behaving responsibly and didn't show it. Then they saw a kid at the show and followed him around until he did something that would be shocking out of context. Maybe someone corrected him right after the camera cut. Maybe not, there are some parents out there that don't watch their kid you think out of that whole show there is not one careless parent?
That's how these things work, they find the worst possible example and use it to represent everyone.
I'll also add both sides of every political issue does it and it's part of the reason we can't have an intelligent conversation about anything anymore.
What do we see in the few seconds of video? This is what I see.
I see a large gun show with a number of persons in the field of view. I see the young boy in the front left of the table on which the guns sit. Next to him, to his left, are two teenagers or young men picking up and dry firing and examining the guns. They do this in a manner similar to the boy. I see other persons nearby not paying any attention to them and going about their business. About 10 feet away I see a man on the other side of the table looking in the direction of the boy and the youth, or maybe at the camera. He appears to be working the table. He has that look and he is on the correct side of the table to do that. He is relaxed and does not appear alarmed by the camera, or what the boy and the youths are doing. I don't see anyone else alarmed by what they are doing or paying attention to them.
I do not see any ties on the guns or cables securing the guns to the table, but the video is fuzzy.
In a few seconds that's about all I see.
Where are the parents? I don't know. They could be just off screen and behind the boy, or not. I don't know. What about the youth next to the boy? They could be related to him and supervising him, moving from table to table. Or maybe not. They pay no attention to the boy dry firing in the few seconds we have here. It's possible that means they have seen him do it before or that children doing so is not unusual at this show. That may be why the man "working the table" does not seem concerned by the boy's actions, or the youth's actions. Did they ask permission to dry fire? I don't know because all we see is a few seconds of video.
Just before that scene is a scene of a restaurant worker serving food while packing.
News media like shots of people doing and saying things that arose emotions and spark debate and controversy. More attention, higher ratings, mo' money. "If it bleeds it leads".
There is no evidence that they staged either of these shots. They did not need to.
There is nothing "wrong" in the clips as far as we know. At this show, at that table, they let a boy and two youth, pick up guns and dry fire. A person with a camera took video of them doing that. CBS producers chose to edit and show it, same as the restaurant server, because it sparks debate and "OMG! How could that happen?", just like it does here.
Don't draw too many radical conclusions from a few seconds of edited video. Also don't make a mistake between what you see and the story you make up to go along with it. There is a difference that matters.
But it's not about the conclusion we draw from a few seconds of edited video. It's about the conclusions that non-gunny type folks will draw and the stories they make up to go along with what they think they saw. And news editors have a pretty good idea what conclusions and what stories those few seconds of edited video will encourage in that target audience.
We can't control what the news media says or does. We can control ourselves. We can try to blunt the effects of that sort of propaganda by (1) taking our friends and neighbors to the range and introducing them, if they're so inclined, to shooting; and (2) acting in ways inconsistent with the negative stereotypes the news media tries to portray of gun owners.
Propaganda works poorly in an educated population. We don't have to win over everyone. We just have to win over enough.
Why would you think that?
They only had a show against 3 wheelers back in the mid 80’s showing how dangerous they are because they parked one on the side of a hill and pushed the handle bars in the downhill direction to watch it fall over. Gave me chills until my brain kicked in and I wondered what the fate of a motorcycle would be if it was on flat ground and One just let go of it...
Also don’t forget how in 1992 what they were doing to save us all from those GM trucks that blew up like a Ford Pinto at a 4th of July party. Remember, they even ignited model rocket engines as they ran into one, without a gas cap on the filler neck, to prove it.
Kind of funny to me why people think we are just now getting “fake news”. Alas, when there are people willing to tell a “good story” (my Grandmother called them lies) there are people that don’t know any better, there to believe it.
The gun shows I go to around here have mostly FFL`s and a few private sellers. Most if not all of the FFL`s have their display guns zip tied , cable locked, tethered to the table in some way or behind a barrier made of plexiglass. The private sells are the ones who almost never have their gun safe in any way.
Whether the boy is a plant or not does not matter in terms of how defenders of the 2nd Amendment respond.
You can't prove it's a plant (unless someone comes forward) so leave it. Take up the broader issues.
In the video it looks like an unsupervised child is playing with guns at a gun show. We are all against that so we say so. It's also the case that such action is extremely rare in all our experiences. A few seconds of video do not tell the whole story. It's likely this piece of vid was chosen to shock people (it certainly was).
There is always going to be some piece of odd video. Someone is always going to act a fool with a gun. We are not responsible for that. We have other work to do. The millions of people who go to the range or hunting weekly and shoot safely are the result of our work defending the 2nd.
Sadly, my parents and all their friends do.
And not in a skeptical manner, either.
Of course arguing from the specific is fraught with logical problems.
However, as anecdote, seniors are a voting block which, those with an agenda, would want to reach.
Are they? Occam's razor suggests otherwise. Not surely, not certainly--skepticism is still requisite. As is eternal vigilance on our part.
Separate names with a comma.