Young people doing a "prank" went around kicking in doors at 3 a.m. One homeowner shot them and is sitting in jail. Thoughts?

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Yes, if he shot them as they were running away he loses the presumption of self-defense.
They would have had to enter, or be actively trying to enter his house to engage a typical castle doctrine law and to give him the presumption of self-defense. Even if they aren't actually running away, if they aren't actively trying to break in at the time the shots were fired, castle doctrine wouldn't apply. (This is just a response to a comment. I don't know exactly how the castle doctrine for the area in the video reads, nor if that area even has a castle doctrine law.
The Corona case is completely different, the ding-dongers had already left the scene in their car, the homeowner got in his own car and chased them. Completely illegal.
Sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear. That part of my post was not focused on legality or tactics of the homeowner, but on informing as many kids as possible NOT to engage in an activity which has a decent chance of making them dead.
Shooting through the door is never going to bode well in any state.
I'm not going to say that shooting through a door is a great tactic, or always legal, but it can be legal in some areas depending on the circumstances, and in some cases might be a good tactic. If one can, for example observe the situation and note a significant number of armed persons obviously trying to break in, a shot through the door would probably be legal in some areas, and if it stopped the defender from having to engage a number of armed persons inside their house, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Please don't imply that I'm saying it's always legal to shoot through a door, that it's always a good idea to shoot through a door, or that it's always good tactics to shoot through a door. I'm not saying that. I'm saying in certain limited circumstances, in some areas, it could possibly be legal and might be a tactic worth considering.
 
Castle doctrine and duty to retreat are not the same thing. Castle doctrine says if somebody is trying to break into your home you get the presumption of being afraid for your life, you don't have to prove that.

Mmmm...

No, castle doctrine simply states that you have no duty to retreat while in your home or other place in which you are legally occupying. It's recognized as a place in which you have certain rights, immunities, and protections under the law. It does not "automatically" give one the "presumption of being afraid for your life". Nor does it automatically mean one does not have to prove a "fear for one's life".

We can name any number of hypothetical circumstances which illustrate this.
 
Stand your ground is about duty to retreat.

Castle doctrine is different from Stand your Ground. Castle Doctrine provides the presumption that deadly force is justified if a shooting takes place in a qualifying occupied structure or space if the attacker has broken in or is attempting to break in. It may also provide some civil immunity for qualifying shootings. The presumption of justification can be attacked by the state if there is sufficient evidence to refute the presumption.

Basically Castle Doctrine shifts the burden of proof. In a "normal" self-defense case, the defendant must admit to committing homicide (or assault with a deadly weapon) and then prove to the state that the action was justified. That means that a defendant in a "normal" self-defense case has to admit to guilt and then starting from that position, prove that they are innocent. With Castle Doctrine, if the requirements are met, the state must prove that the use of deadly force was NOT justified and if they can not, they must presume that it was. Basically it puts defenders whose shootings meet the Castle Doctrine requirements back into the position of being innocent until proven guilty.

Edit

<<I'm going to have to stop referring to Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground by those terms because it is causing confusion. There are no formal definitions of either of those terms and it has come to my attention that it is becoming common to use the terms ambiguously. For example, one state in the not too distant past, enacted a law that they called Castle Doctrine which basically stated that there was no longer any duty to retreat in the home. Other states, when they pass Castle Doctrine enact protections that provide the presumption of justification for the use of deadly force if the defender is in a protected location and certain circumstances exist (generally if someone is in their home and someone breaks in) AND provide civil immunity protections. Such laws implicitly prevent the state from using duty to retreat against someone in their own home, but they also do much more. >>
 
I am going to relate a story that illustrates that sometimes the answer that is otherwise "never" the answer may be the right answer.

When I first became a gunowner, a retired LEO here amazingly volunteered to teach me long-distance. Besides working on shooting technique, I made a list of scenarios to discuss possible responses. In my then neighborhood there were many homeless encampments populated largely by three groups which in some cases overlapped: mentally ill, drug addicts, and recently released criminals. Sometimes they would try to get into a home to avoid being arrested for a new crime they had just committed when police were looking for them. I had steel security doors over all my exterior doors which could not be kicked in, which enabled me to open the wood door to see and talk to whomever would ring my bell. This was important because a typical m.o. for break-ins was to ring the bell and if nobody answered, assume no one was home and go around the back of the house and find a way to break in. Most of my encounters involved people fabricating stories designed to get me to open the door so they could get in, which of course I never did. Based on an experience an acquaintance had had, I asked my mentor what to do if a mentally ill criminal on drugs is at the door with a gun and threatens to shoot me if I don't let him in so police won't find him. The answer was, shoot through the security door.
 
Well you could always try the " Vice President told us to do this on TV " defense :
By Hadas Gold
07/18/2013 06:15 AM EDT



Forget Stand Your Ground laws. A man in Washington state is using Vice President Joe Biden as his defense for shooting a gun in the air to scare off what he thought were car thieves.



Jeffery Barton, 52, pleaded not guilty on Wednesday to one count of illegal aiming or discharging a firearm, but said he was just doing what Joe Biden told him to do, according to KOIN.
“I did what Joe Biden told me to do,” Barton told reporters outside the courtroom. “I went outside and fired my shotgun in the air.”
( PHOTOS: Politicians with guns)
To police, Barton reportedly said he had fired the gun while chasing away people who he thought were breaking into his vehicles.
In February, Biden held an online question-and-answer session where he said at the time people don’t need automatic weapons to protect themselves and should “buy a shotgun” instead.
“As I told my wife — we live in an area that’s wooded and somewhat secluded — I said, ‘Jill if there’s ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here or walk out, put that double barreled shotgun, and fire two blasts outside the house,’” Biden said. “I promise you who’s ever coming in is not going — you don’t need an AR-15, it’s harder to aim, it’s harder to use, and, in fact, you don’t need 30 rounds to protect yourself.”
 
Stand your ground is about duty to retreat.

Castle doctrine is different from Stand your Ground. Castle Doctrine provides the presumption that deadly force is justified if a shooting takes place in a qualifying occupied structure or space if the attacker has broken in or is attempting to break in. It may also provide some civil immunity for qualifying shootings. The presumption of justification can be attacked by the state if there is sufficient evidence to refute the presumption.

Basically Castle Doctrine shifts the burden of proof. In a "normal" self-defense case, the defendant must admit to committing homicide (or assault with a deadly weapon) and then prove to the state that the action was justified. That means that a defendant in a "normal" self-defense case has to admit to guilt and then starting from that position, prove that they are innocent. With Castle Doctrine, if the requirements are met, the state must prove that the use of deadly force was NOT justified and if they can not, they must presume that it was. Basically it puts defenders whose shootings meet the Castle Doctrine requirements back into the position of being innocent until proven guilty.

While many of us here understand, I also think it's important to educate people on what "homicide" is. Too many people equate homicide with murder and it causes confusion amongst the average layperson.

Homicide is the killing of another human being. No more, no less.

Homicide encompasses murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, and justifiable homicides like self-defense. Maybe a couple more, but this is it in a nutshell.

So while all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murder.

So for a defense which starts with admitting to homicide isn't an admission to murder. It's saying "yes, I killed this person". The defense to the killing of the person is "it was justifiable under the laws because (fill in the blank with the statutory exceptions for use of deadly force)".

The key is, as you say, you have to admit to the homicide in order to defend yourself. To say you DIDN'T commit homicide is to say "I didn't kill this person". If that's the case, then you cannot claim self-defense as a form of justifiable homicide later.

For states which have a form of castle doctrine, the burden shifts because, as you say, there's an initial presumption that a person who meets the "castle" part of the doctrine (they were in a place they were legally allowed to occupy, such as their house, home, vehicle, etc.) and therefore had a right to defend themselves, even to the point of deadly force, against someone else who was a credible threat to their life/limb.

A homicide was committed and it's upon the State, in this instance, to show that the threat was NOT credible enough to warrant the use of deadly force.


These are such touchy legal concepts to explain to some, especially those who are adamant against the use of deadly force for gun control purposes. But they are essential concepts to those who choose to carry/use firearms for the purpose of self-defense.

Ignorance of these legal principles is legally dangerous to people who may choose to defend themselves by any means, much less with firearms.
 
So another bizarro video brought by Colion Noir. There is apparently a prank going around on tik-tok of not just ringing a doorbell and running away which kids sometimes used to do, but actively pretending (?) to be breaking in at 3:00 a.m., by violently kicking doors etc. Wait till you see the video of the door-kicking! Homeowner appears to have shot through the door and hit one or two of them and is now sitting in jail.

Colion said Virginia where this happened does not have an actual castle doctrine law, but his sympathies are with the homeowner -- what would any rational person think on hearing his or her door being kicked in by multiple people at 3 am? One interesting fact is that while the miscreants showed videos of themselves doing other homes, they claimed not to have video of the one where the shooting occurred...

What do you guys think?

I really need to see the video.
But that is one reason I have cameras that record all transactions on or near my property.
So at least I can show what really happened.
I will not shoot through my door, BUT if you breach that door [ they are hardened too ] then pew pew.
Retired LEO, so been shot at and taken a few down at gunpoint.
I feel I know when its pew pew time.
 
Castle doctrine and duty to retreat are not the same thing.
That is true. A duty to retreat is just what the words imply: even if the use of force would otherwise be lawful for self defense, the defender in a duty to retreat jurisdiction must first retreat, if retreat is safely possible. In "stand your ground" jurisdictions (do not confuse that with laws that provide for court action without a trial), that obligation does not exist, as long as the defender is where he has a legal right to be.
Castle doctrine says if somebody is trying to break into your home you get the presumption of being afraid for your life, you don't have to prove that.
That seems to be a not uncommon misconception, oft stated in the media and in some "legal sources" on the web.

Attorney Andrew Branca says that every US state has some form of Castle Doctrine. What it does, and all it does, is to obviate any other existing duty to retreat in some places and under certain circumstances.

The terms vary widely. The may apply only apply within a domicile. They may cover the curtilage. They may cover an occupied conveyance. Or a place of business. Or certain real property, if it is owned by the actor, or if the actor controls the lease.

In some states, the jury instructions permit the triers of fact to reflect consider whether retreat, even if not required, would have been more reasonable than the use of deadly force. In some states that is not true.

Some states have laws which do provide a legal presumption, which is rebuttable, that an occupant is considered to have had a reasonable belief that an imminent danger of death or serious injury would exist in certain places and under certain circumstances.

The terms very widely. In some jurisdictions, they apply if and only if a forcible entry has been completed, and the occupant knew it had been forcible. In some, the occupant must have reason to believe that the person who has entered presented some danger of using some force, no matter how slight, against the occupant.
This is a very important distinction, so I wanted to repost it.
It has importance, but it may not be legally dispositive.
 
They surely involve different pucker factors.
For me, that would be to arm myself and secure my Bedroom heavy door and cover windows of possible entry from cover. Call 911 and stay put until the cavalry comes. I don't fire or even consider it until all four RULES are fulfilled, and I have no doubt deadly force by hostiles is being used upon me. I don't care if that slows down my split times, etc. I've done my part and will continue to do so, even when caught with my pants down.
 
I was telling the old lady about this story last night and we got in the biggest argument.

She is so stupid with early judgment, I don't really have an opinion until after the dust settles and the trial is over and all of the facts are brought out in the open.
She said the guy had no right to shoot, I said he may have had the right to shoot.
I really don't give a rats azz one way or another.
We will find out if he did after the trial.

Until then I just sit back grab some popcorn and read these comments,
 
In the 25-odd years we've lived on our rural 10ac, never have we had a circumstance like the OP recounted. BTW, this is in the jurisdiction of the County Sheriff.

Substantial 6' fencing, no trespassing signage, cameras, and the home sits pretty much in the middle.

If someone was indeed breaking into the house, regardless of time of day, I'd respond with armed force. They have already breached the fencing, ignored the legal notice bilingual signs.

Being this is Arizona, I'm hypothetically curious as to how that might play out in the event it actually happens.

Conelrad
 
I'm not familiar with this incident. Was this a kicking on a door thing or a ringing of a doorbell thing?
That is made clear half a minute into the video posted in the OP.

This discussion should have been educational.

I don't think there is much more to discuss.

When the case is resolved, we can discuss it.
 
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