Your carry gun is NOT for Show & Tell

[JohnKSa]

1. It was aimed in the trunk of my car, had it gone off, it would've shot into my trunk, worst case scenario, into the asphalt.

2.same as 1. It can be noted, my car was facing a concrete wall, no cars/people to either side. Absolute worst case, in my opinion, it fires into the ground and ricochets into the wall.

3. Nothing at all, but y'all know the saying, curiosity killed the cat and satisfaction revived it. At least, that's what my baby sister says.

4. Look at 1. & 2.

Having considered those answers, what is your assessment?

If you'll forgive my curiosity, I have a couple of questions, having seen the photos. What was it about the gun that the guy wanted to see? What's the deal with the red paint?

 

[gobsauce]

Having considered those answers, what is your assessment?

If you'll forgive my curiosity, I have a couple of questions, having seen the photos. What was it about the gun that the guy wanted to see? What's the deal with the red paint?

I think I was okay. I went in, made it clear that I had a gun, I cleared it, the shopkeep cleared it, the other dude cleared it. What's your assessment?

I have no idea. Guess he was just curious as to what I was carrying. Once he was done, he put it back into the holster, gave it back, and said "you've got a lovely workhorse right there.". I'll ask if I ever see him again, he shook my hand for being kind after I gave his directions to a GECU ATM machine.

It's chalk, just plain red chalk. I like making marks pop out.

Curiosity is always welcome.

 

[JohnKSa]

What's your assessment?

It sounds like you were pretty careful; that's good.

I think a valuable way to think about these things, is from the standpoint of: "What could happen if things don't go as planned?" The guy in the video obviously wouldn't have drawn his gun if he had known the outcome would be to shoot the guy next to him. He pulled out the gun without considering the possibility that things might not go the way he planned them to--or at least without giving it due consideration.

 

[herrwalther]

I think I was okay. I went in, made it clear that I had a gun, I cleared it, the shopkeep cleared it, the other dude cleared it.

That is my point of view. Properly clearing a weapon if you are going to show it off, or someone asks. The incident video shows the wrong way to do things: not letting store employee/owner know they are clearing, unsafe direction, flagging (and shooting) guy next to them, improper technique etc etc. Proper safe handling is a must and it is why they are considered the rules.

 

[dogtown tom]

A stack of books is better than my hand or flagging someone else, like in the incident video.

Again, a 'stack of books" is not better. "Better" being you clearing your firearm someplace other than a gun store.
Nothing good ever comes from a customer unholstering or drawing a loaded firearm or reholstering that same loaded firearm. Do it in your own car, in your house or in a vacant parking lot.

In those cases yes, the firearm goes inside a case. Already unloaded. I have only done the procedure I mentioned earlier maybe 3 times. All with permission of the store owner.

He's an idiot.
And outside of the reasons I gave, what possible reason could you have to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

Just your opinion. If it is done correctly, there is little danger.

Of course, "if it is done correctly" there is little danger............and thats the problem. It's often NOT done correctly and negligent discharges happen. ND's happen with "trained" and untrained firearm owners.

I am not saying everyone should be clearing weapons in a store, although I know some odd stores that do require cleared weapons, even holstered ones. It just has to be done correctly.

Odd stores? I can name a dozen big box, mom & pop gun shops and virtually every gun show in Texas..........clear your firearm before entry.

The risk of a negligent discharge (and the inevitable lawsuit from someone injured) because some idiot was allowed by the idiot LGS owner to draw a loaded firearm inside his store isn't a risk any sane person would make.

Again, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

 

[dogtown tom]

...I'll try not to take that personally.

You own a gun store?
You allow customers to clear their firearms inside your store?
How personally will you take it when a negligent discharge and injury occurs?

Good grief.

 

[Mainsail]

When transferring the M56 (S&W model 15 snub) from one crewmember to another in-flight, we remove it from the holster and lay it on a flat surface.

Decades of this and never a single problem. Two pistols, transferring between two people about every over the water flight.

But back to the topic- I don't get it, but some people like to show off their handgun. Washington Arms Collectors forbids firearms carry at their gun shows because of this. It was easier to ban the guns than it was to expect people to act responsibly.

 

[Hangingrock]

In my USMC-Days long in the past, a negative weapon discharge was at the minimum your commanding officer "Office Hours" with rendered punishment. Things like this were not taken lightly.

 

[DarkswordDX]

You own a gun store?
You allow customers to clear their firearms inside your store?
How personally will you take it when a negligent discharge and injury occurs?

Good grief.

Getting this worked up over what other people do isn't good for your ticker. How about reading my first post in the thread, and then apologizing? In 20 years I've had one ND in my store, caused by a (new) young female employee and causing no injury. You seem to deal with a dumber run of clientele than I and others do and maybe your apprehension is valid there, but its no reason to be rude to anyone here.

 

[dogtown tom]

Getting this worked up over what other people do isn't good for your ticker.

I'm not worked up.

How about reading my first post in the thread, and then apologizing?

I did read your first post and it changes my opinion not one bit. Customers should not be drawing or unholstering a loaded firearm while inside your store.
If I hurt your feelz, maybe its your safety policy.

In 20 years I've had one ND in my store, caused by a (new) young female employee and causing no injury.

Aren't you lucky. How is that policy of customer clears firearm, "then I clear it too" working out?

You seem to deal with a dumber run of clientele than I

Nothing I wrote could give anyone that conclusion. Dumb would be drawing/unholstering without asking. And again, any customer who asks if they can draw/unholster is denied permission to do so.

and others do and maybe your apprehension is valid there, but its no reason to be rude to anyone here.

Pointing out poor safety practices isn't being rude.

 

[SwampWolf]

Bad things can happen even when the construct for firearm safety is in place if the handler isn't fully focused on proper procedure for unloading a gun. Familiarity can breed contempt. I recall being in line at the pistol "clearing" pit in front of the armory, waiting my turn to turn in my weapon, at the Guam Andersen Air Force base, in 1963, when a fellow Air Policeman shot himself in the palm of his hand whilst unloading a 1911 pistol while we were being relieved from an eight hour duty stint. The procedure was to remove the magazine, rack the slide several times, point the pistol at a bucket filled with sand, pull the trigger, retract the slide and use the slide control lever to hold it to the rear and hand it to the armorer. Somewhere along the line, the airman lost his train of thought and shot himself.

I do remember how loud the report of a gun can be when you aren't expecting it and the immediate response of making sure it wasn't you who might have been shot. Too, I recall the reaction of the airman who shot himself. He looked at the hole in his hand and wondered at who shot him. He felt no pain, wasn't spun around nor fell to the ground. Ever since, in terms of "knock down" power, I've been skeptical of the effectiveness of 230 grain, .45 ACP, ball ammunition.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"Is gun. Gun not safe."

I wish I could remember who said that here so I could credit them with that.

The mere fact that removing one's loaded carry piece from a holster is not "safe" does not mean that it cannot be safely done. If this were so, then guns would be going off and people would be getting shot every time this happened.

I believe the OP was more concerned with frivolous or casual unholstering of a firearm than one done in a serious, business-like manner. Certainly, one's carry piece is not something that should be bandied about carelessly for show-and-tell and story telling.

But the fact of the matter is that a gun shop is not necessarily a "wrong" place in which to (appropriately) unholster one's sidearm. They're actually in the business of handling, selling, and buying firearms, so one would not expect them to be retards about the matter. If they are, then I submit one shouldn't be there in the first place.

That said...unholstering one's carry piece should be done in a controlled fashion with the appropriate safety in mind and ALWAYS in accordance with the gun shop's view on such matters. Which means ASK FIRST and then follow their guidance. If they don't allow it...so be it. If they do...then unholster and clear your sidearm appropriately.

I've been in a few gun shops in my time. Many are quite good about posting their rules on this subject so it's clear up front. I couldn't give a percentage, but certainly a significant number of those gun shops have it posted that guns brought in (meaning not carried on one's person) shall be unloaded and in a case. Guns carried on one's person are to remain holstered. Some don't have signs posted. I've been in shops where someone came in carrying and asked if they could show their weapon for some reason. Some shops said no (with instructions on how to bring their sidearm in properly for this) and some shops said yes (with attentive instructions on how to go about it).

If you run a gun shop...your rules apply, however you wish to handle such matters. It's no skin off my back (or anybody else's) to comply with them.

 

[Tirod]

There is a common related issue with the 4 rules of safety: You don't make exceptions. This is the same. Making exceptions is what creates the negligent discharge in the first place. One of the possible scenarios I mentioned and it has nothing to do with gun handling in a gun store, it's Show and Tell in what the carrier considers to be a socially safe place - like, auto parts stores on a quiet morning.

It's still an exception.

Like not trying to load a weapon against a closed bolt or slide, adopting the personal rule of never doing it means you never have to hassle the magazine not engaging and it falling out - which is a significant failure in combat. It's a bit embarrassing at a range too and is evidence the user isn't as adept and experienced as they "know" they are. Humility comes with a price sometimes. When you adopt a safety practice that eliminates an issue that could have serious consequences, you then avoid them entirely.

Another example, never loading single rounds thru the ejection port. In some firearms, and more so with soft civilian primers, when you release the bolt or slide, a non captive firing pin may on rare occasion strike the primer hard enough to cause a "slam fire." The primer ignites and the gun goes off when you least expected it. Call it what you like it's still operator negligence.

Some question why others adopt these rules as it seems to them to be so little in probability they discount it as improbable and basically the guy who does it is of questionable intelligence. And we aren't arguing the point - until it happens to be them - and the first thing we hear is denial over the confirmation. They just proved exactly what we are discussing, it happens enough it's not a question of intelligence, but a defect in logic. There are enough examples that it can happen, and denial isn't an appropriate reaction.

We adopt the rules along with the 4 rules of safety as these situations tend to result in a lot of excuses being made yet are also examples of why we should follow them. They may be considered extreme - that aint gonna happen - but practicing them does prevent an extreme - the gun goes off thru negligence. Since the potential result can, has, and will be negligent lethal force, ignoring them is being willfully dangerous to those around us.

Making exceptions and excuses seem to go hand in hand.

 

[herrwalther]

He's an idiot.
And outside of the reasons I gave, what possible reason could you have to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

Again, your opinion. If any owner I spoke with had a problem clearing in the store, I would clear in my car. Or not at unholster at all. Not a big deal. Calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with their store rules is not very high road. You do you. In your store I would respect your rules. In another, their rules.

Of course, "if it is done correctly" there is little danger............and thats the problem. It's often NOT done correctly and negligent discharges happen. ND's happen with "trained" and untrained firearm owners.

Fully agree with you on this one. The more you manipulate a firearm, the more likely it is to "go off."

Odd stores? I can name a dozen big box, mom & pop gun shops and virtually every gun show in Texas..........clear your firearm before entry.

I think you misunderstood me on this small part. The odd stores I am referring to require clearing of your carry firearm and employing 2 fellows running a metal detector, with zip ties to hold open actions. I can't think of many mom and pop operation stores that would go to these lengths to keep out even holstered firearms. Most of my regular shops have a sign that says something to the effect of "all firearms unloaded, unless in a holster."

 

[AK Hunter]

The only time my gun comes out of the holster in public is if I'm using it.
Chances are you won't see it before you hear it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Again, your opinion. If any owner I spoke with had a problem clearing in the store, I would clear in my car. Or not at unholster at all. Not a big deal. Calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with their store rules is not very high road. You do you. In your store I would respect your rules. In another, their rules.

I'm not calling them an idiot for what rules they have, but for the liability they incur and the danger they present by allowing customers to draw and unholster a loaded firearm inside their store.

AGAIN, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

 

[danez71]

AGAIN, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

Because the police said so.

 

[herrwalther]

I'm not calling them an idiot for what rules they have, but for the liability they incur and the danger they present by allowing customers to draw and unholster a loaded firearm inside their store.

AGAIN, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

We disagree. Neither of our opinions are going to change on this back and forth.

Going back to the video and watching again. I'll focus on some things that haven't been addressed thus far. Failures in gun handling that any formal or even informal instructor should be aware of. Like it or not, anytime gun owners deal with a new firearm owner with less experience, we have the chance to impart wisdom. And it is our responsibility to make sure that wisdom is as accurate and useful as possible.

So it looks like red shirt guy is teaching tank top guy some firearm safety and ends up being an astounding lesson in what not to do. Clearing inside a store aside, that is the dead horse. This accident could have happened anywhere.

• Touched on already, but red shirt guy doesn't properly clear his own weapon. That is probably the biggest safety violation. Rolled into this is not pointing the muzzle in a safe direction and doesn't know his own firearm very well.
• It looks like the two handguns are different models. So red shirt guy is trying to show disassembly on a firearm that does not match tank top guy. That would be like a student asking me how to take apart their brand new Glock, and I show how to take apart a 1911. Maybe they aren't that dissimilar, but the example holds. Inside a gun store, either of them could have asked for help from a clerk on how to take apart tank top's firearm. Most gun shop employees I have dealt with have either taken the time to impart some basics or referred a new shooter to a trainer who would.
• Technology, use it to your advantage. Okay, hypothetically this didn't happen in a gun store and the ND took place somewhere else. Or the clerk is too busy to answer your question. Unless tank top guy's new firearm is something obscure, there is probably videos online on how to take it apart. Instead of pulling out your carry (bad) to clear (bad again) to show how, just use a smart phone. Find a video. Clearly this is a new and modern firearm, judging from the case. Even without a video, I am willing to bet there are instructions in that case.

 

[dogtown tom]

We disagree. Neither of our opinions are going to change on this back and forth.

Why will you not answer my question?
AGAIN, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

In the OP's video.......do you think the gun store bears any liability for the negligent handling and discharge?
Whether the gun store has a policy or not, the fact is that gun store would be facing significant legal expenses. Umbrella polices cover "trip and falls", but good luck getting your insurance policy to cover ND's on your property, especially when you allow customers to draw/unholster.

No Loaded Firearms Inside Store! policies aren't antigun or antiidiot.....they are to reduce or minimize liability on the storeowner.

 

[Blue Jays]

Firearms enthusiasts should be really cautious about publicly advocating for gun bans.

 

[danez71]

It's a wonder that there's any shooting ranges with all the loaded guns out of holsters.

 

[Ethan Verity]

No Loaded Firearms Inside Store! policies aren't antigun or antiidiot.....they are to reduce or minimize liability on the storeowner.

Sure sounds antigun to me! If a gun store, or any store for that matter, thinks I should not be allowed to defend my own life on its property, I will find another place to do business with. A blanket "no loaded firearms" policy is overkill... I am fine with a simple "keep it holstered, unless you need to defend yourself" policy instead.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Why will you not answer my question?
AGAIN, why on earth do you need to draw a loaded firearm and clear it inside a gun store?

In the OP's video.......do you think the gun store bears any liability for the negligent handling and discharge?
Whether the gun store has a policy or not, the fact is that gun store would be facing significant legal expenses. Umbrella polices cover "trip and falls", but good luck getting your insurance policy to cover ND's on your property, especially when you allow customers to draw/unholster.

No Loaded Firearms Inside Store! policies aren't antigun or antiidiot.....they are to reduce or minimize liability on the storeowner.

Nobody's arguing about potential liability issues here. But each business makes that decision for themselves. It's not mandated. And it's not our business to dictate this to others.

And repeatedly asking the question about why anybody would do this isn't getting anywhere, either. We all have our opinions on the matter. More than that, we can all come up with some reason or other for this, and then we'd all sit here arguing over whether it was valid or not. That's not productive.

I think it's pretty clear that you, and others, have made it plain what their views are on the matter.


Loaded firearms are dangerous. Unloaded firearms are treated the same way. And yet, how many gun shops have their own firing ranges where people bring guns inside them, load them, unload them, and shoot them?

"But that's a SHOOTING range, Chief!"

Sure it is...and people are handling loaded firearms around other people at the shooting range all the time. What do you think the liability would be if someone got shot on the range?

If a gun shop has rules on this...follow the rules. If someone doesn't like the rules...then they shouldn't put themselves in a position to run afoul of them, or perhaps not frequent the gun shop at all.

Establishing and maintaining a formal atmosphere about this matter is the key, whether that's a posted policy, respectful requests on the subject, or following strict instructions appropriately on it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Nobody's arguing about potential liability issues here.

They sure as hell better be considering liability.

But each business makes that decision for themselves. It's not mandated. And it's not our business to dictate this to others.

No one is dictating anything.

And repeatedly asking the question about why anybody would do this isn't getting anywhere, either.

It's a valid question given the topic.
Are you terrified that you really have no good answer or are you one that just has to draw your gun to show everyone in the gun store what you carry?

Loaded firearms are dangerous. Unloaded firearms are treated the same way.

And when treated in a negligent manner people can get injured by that loaded firearm.
If you want to show off clear it before you come inside. It's not hard.

And yet, how many gun shops have their own firing ranges where people bring guns inside them, load them, unload them, and shoot them?

Totally different set of protocols for ranges. NONE of the ranges in the Dallas/Ft Worth area would tolerate a customer walking around with a loaded firearm in his hands outside of his shooting station. They don't tolerate drawing a loaded handgun in their retail sales area either.

"But that's a SHOOTING range, Chief!"
Sure it is...and people are handling loaded firearms around other people at the shooting range all the time.

If you can't see the difference I'm really sorry for you.

What do you think the liability would be if someone got shot on the range?

If shot by another customer, the range may be liable if they did not adequately monitor or supervise those on the firing line. Hence, range officers.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sure sounds antigun to me! If a gun store, or any store for that matter, thinks I should not be allowed to defend my own life on its property, I will find another place to do business with. A blanket "no loaded firearms" policy is overkill... I am fine with a simple "keep it holstered, unless you need to defend yourself" policy instead.

No one said a darn thing about you not being able to defend yourself, any time, any place. If you read the thread you'll discover that this has to do with drawing/unholstering a loaded firearm and clearing it IN THE STORE.