Your dream muzzleloading handgun

[TTv2]

I'm in the design concept phase for muzzleloading revolvers and derringers that aren't based off historical designs, that aren't reproductions because I think there's a market for modern black powder handguns given the state of gun laws in the world.

My dream handgun it uses no percussion caps as the ignition source and instead use primers. They're cheaper, they won't get stuck in the actions of revolvers, they don't blow themselves apart and also, I can use a firing pin in the revolver so it would make cartridge conversions easier to make and use.

I'd make it in various calibers, .31, .36, .44, and .50 maybe even .54. So far as I know, nobody has ever made a .50 cal or larger percussion revolver. Imagine a .54 caliber revolver with a 400 grain conical bullet going 900 fps? How about a .31 with a 9 shot cylinder that's removable like the 1858 NMA and also is loaded with conicals? That's an effective conceal carry piece right there for somebody in Poland or Canada or New York City.

 

[Patocazador]

How about a .31 with a 9 shot cylinder that's removable like the 1858 NMA and also is loaded with conicals?

I'd hate to trust my life to a .31 black powder gun.
I have one but carry a centerfire .40 instead.

 

[mjsdwash]

something that can take 45 ACP 230gr bullets, with a step in the cylinder to stop them from overseating, Smokeless powder compatability. Double action would be a good thing if marketing to the world, and primers may not be necessary, because anywhere where blackpowder is legal, but cartridge is not, caps will be much easy to find than primers. Something like a GP100, or 686, but with a ramrod intead of an ejector. Swing out cylinder may make a priming system much more stable. Hope you can make one, it would be fun.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I could see this going one of two ways.

Path 1 would be to take a S&W or Ruger revolver and make a new cylinder for it. Drop-fit onto the arbor, set up so it can be removed just by pulling it off for loading on an external press (or replacement with a loaded cylinder).

Path 2 is to go historical...specifically, an Adams or Tranter repro. The British were making double-action revolvers in the 1850s.

Big headache either way: Quality workmanship costs money. Most American shooters are convinced that a muzzle-loading firearm should cost half of what a cartridge gun should, because it loads from the front end. Which is why we get sold guns that are often closer to a parts kit than to a proper firearm.

 

[TTv2]

I could see this going one of two ways.

Path 1 would be to take a S&W or Ruger revolver and make a new cylinder for it. Drop-fit onto the arbor, set up so it can be removed just by pulling it off for loading on an external press (or replacement with a loaded cylinder).

Path 2 is to go historical...specifically, an Adams or Tranter repro. The British were making double-action revolvers in the 1850s.

Big headache either way: Quality workmanship costs money. Most American shooters are convinced that a muzzle-loading firearm should cost half of what a cartridge gun should, because it loads from the front end. Which is why we get sold guns that are often closer to a parts kit than to a proper firearm.

Of course quality costs money, but when people are limited to what they can buy, it's better than nothing and they'll pay the price for it. Look at the panic prices people were paying for AR lowers after Sandy Hook.

I don't like the historical route, it limits me to better designs. I forgot to mention, I'd make DA/SA and SAO revolvers. I'd start off small, wouldn't have much demand for them because new company and all that, but after a few years, I think I'd have a decent demand from overseas.

Just gotta think of a name for the company. I'm thinking Pigslayer Arms.

 

[OldFashioned]

I'm in the design concept phase for muzzleloading revolvers and derringers that aren't based off historical designs, that aren't reproductions because I think there's a market for modern black powder handguns given the state of gun laws in the world.

My dream handgun it uses no percussion caps as the ignition source and instead use primers. They're cheaper, they won't get stuck in the actions of revolvers, they don't blow themselves apart and also, I can use a firing pin in the revolver so it would make cartridge conversions easier to make and use.

I'd make it in various calibers, .31, .36, .44, and .50 maybe even .54. So far as I know, nobody has ever made a .50 cal or larger percussion revolver. Imagine a .54 caliber revolver with a 400 grain conical bullet going 900 fps? How about a .31 with a 9 shot cylinder that's removable like the 1858 NMA and also is loaded with conicals? That's an effective conceal carry piece right there for somebody in Poland or Canada or New York City.

Of course quality costs money, but when people are limited to what they can buy, it's better than nothing and they'll pay the price for it. Look at the panic prices people were paying for AR lowers after Sandy Hook.

I don't like the historical route, it limits me to better designs. I forgot to mention, I'd make DA/SA and SAO revolvers. I'd start off small, wouldn't have much demand for them because new company and all that, but after a few years, I think I'd have a decent demand from overseas.

Just gotta think of a name for the company. I'm thinking Pigslayer Arms.

I'd take an Adams repro especially one that could do smokeless cartridges too... I'd pay stupid money. I mean really stupid money. Also just an FYI the Adams was made in .54 and .577 muzzle loading and BP cartridge varieties. I believe that they even made a few .577 revolving rifles.

 

[rodwha]

I’d love to own a .54 cal 5 shot revolver. I don’t own a .54 cal rifle yet but think I want one possibly instead of the .50 I have. It makes sense to me to have compatible gear but don’t know if I’d prefer it use a .530” ball or .550” conical. I’m a fan of conicals, especially for pistols but that .530” ball is no joke.

 

[JeffG]

I would love a Ketland, or Sea Service flintlock in 69-72 caliber. The (low) quality in repros has me shying away.

 

[damoc]

Basically 20 gauge howdah with 209 ignition for home defense or a over under 20 gauge/ 44 with 209 ignition.

As a muzzelloader short barrel length would not be an issue

 

[Ironhand54]

Something along the lines of the old Cop 357 4 barrel Derringer but in 45 or larger.
Instead of a cylinder exchange have the whole barrel assembly exchange. Much like a modern double shotgun. Sort of a modern pepperbox.

Could have cartridge assemblies as well.

IronHand

 

[TTv2]

I would love a Ketland, or Sea Service flintlock in 69-72 caliber. The (low) quality in repros has me shying away.

Same here. I had considered getting a used Lyman .54 Great Plains Pistol on the advice of others on forums and boring out the diameter to .62 or .69 caliber, but it's too much work.

Basically 20 gauge howdah with 209 ignition for home defense or a over under 20 gauge/ 44 with 209 ignition.

As a muzzelloader short barrel length would not be an issue

I understand the appeal, I've thought of getting the Howdah myself for the same purpose, but I think with the advent of the Mossberg Shockwave it really destroys the potential use of a percussion SxS 20 gauge shotgun.

 

[TTv2]

Something along the lines of the old Cop 357 4 barrel Derringer but in 45 or larger.
Instead of a cylinder exchange have the whole barrel assembly exchange. Much like a modern double shotgun. Sort of a modern pepperbox.

Could have cartridge assemblies as well.

IronHand

I was thinking of this too. 4 shot derringers can be effective and small/light. Also easier/cheaper to manufacture due to the fewer moving parts. Wasn't thinking about an interchangeable barrel system, but that's because I was thinking of making it a .50+ caliber so it could be loaded with shot or some .490 round balls for a little pocket shotgun.

 

[WestKentucky]

Design it specifically to take modern smokeless powder and use soft-ish bullets like Berrys or similar so that rather than sealing up a cartridge by crimping, your sealing up the chamber by swaging the bullet into it. Then take a trip back in time to the old break action revolvers to make priming and depriming easier on the gun, this also is going to be easier to swap cylinders. I suggest a spring loaded sliding lock pin or bar to lock the action rather than a traditional toggle lock. The sliding lock should be mounted paralell to the barrel so that it positively locks under recoil. Make it to shoot at least .358, .401, and .427 bullets and strongly consider .451 as well. Frame should be polymer with alloy skeleton, make it roughly the size of a j frame for the smaller bullets and K frame for larger. Double action only for short barrels, da/sa for barrels longer than 4".

 

[4v50 Gary]

A .36 caliber Ruger Old Army. 5" bbl, stainless, fixed sights.

 

[Ironhand54]

As to the priming issue. What about starter pistol blanks? Even if cartridge guns are banned starter pistol blanks might be available.

They are small and would be easy to use. Easy to machine a recess for too.

IDK but they should set off a charge of BP.

IronHand

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I believe there is or was somebody who would convert your Ruger Old Army to .50 cal.

 

[TTv2]

As to the priming issue. What about starter pistol blanks? Even if cartridge guns are banned starter pistol blanks might be available.

They are small and would be easy to use. Easy to machine a recess for too.

IDK but they should set off a charge of BP.

IronHand

I've never used them before and Idk what size they are and how they fit. With a small magnum pistol primer, I know the size and press fit requirements and they're small, take up little room in a cylinder.

I was thinking tho as to what someone else said that percussion caps are going to be more available in other countries, so my idea is to make cylinders that use primers and others that use percussion. Then if later on the primers are regulated to keep criminals from reloading "assault ammunition" percussion is still possible. Will need to figure out a way to make the frame mounted firing pin work with both primers and percussion caps. I figure if it requires having different firing pins, one for primers and another for percussion, that's the way it'll have to be.

 

[TTv2]

I believe there is or was somebody who would convert your Ruger Old Army to .50 cal.

Custom work that costs so much money and ROA's are becoming more and more scarce and expensive as time goes on. Also, I've had the opinion that they're way overbuilt for the shooting that they'll be doing and the cylinder change is slow compared to 1858's. While it's nice that it can shoot jacketed bullets from the conversion cylinder, it's not that groundbreaking a feature as there are a few lead bullet .45 Colt defensive ammo options out there.

No, I think a factory tooled up and set for producing .50 and .54 caliber revolvers is the way to go, just like if Pietta and Uberti would come out with .36 barrels for their Colt revolvers that measure .357" between the grooves and not .375"

 

[WestKentucky]

Will need to figure out a way to make the frame mounted firing pin work with both primers and percussion caps. I figure if it requires having different firing pins, one for primers and another for percussion, that's the way it'll have to be.

not hard at all. TC contenders came with a rimfire/centerfire selector. A similar design could easily be used to whack on both primers and caps in proper method to ignite them.

 

[AlexanderA]

Inventing something just to conform to laws (as a workaround) is a fool's errand, because the laws can (and will) be changed in response. Look at bump stocks.

 

[TTv2]

Inventing something just to conform to laws (as a workaround) is a fool's errand, because the laws can (and will) be changed in response. Look at bump stocks.

Yeah, and do you know of any revolver that's out there that's larger than .50 caliber? No and you also understand that when it comes to revolvers, people want the biggest they can get because they like to show it off.

I make a .54 muzzleloading revolver and put it on the Walking Dead or in some post apocalyptic video game or movie and it shows a zombie head being obliterated, people all over the world are gonna be like, "I GOTTA HAVE DAT PIGSLAYER HAND CANNON!"

Also, I think it's time we get away from the replicas and repros. Ruger showed how great a percussion revolver with modern features can be and while it may not be as reliable as fixed cartridges, the way muzzleloading revolvers work doesn't mean they're incapable of anything more than being used at CAS matches.

With this type of thinking, nobody would have made inline muzzleloaders or put a scope on a Hawken rifle and deer season wouldn't be the same.

 

[piettakid]

I'm in the design concept phase for muzzleloading revolvers and derringers that aren't based off historical designs, that aren't reproductions because I think there's a market for modern black powder handguns given the state of gun laws in the world.

My dream handgun it uses no percussion caps as the ignition source and instead use primers. They're cheaper, they won't get stuck in the actions of revolvers, they don't blow themselves apart and also, I can use a firing pin in the revolver so it would make cartridge conversions easier to make and use.

I'd make it in various calibers, .31, .36, .44, and .50 maybe even .54. So far as I know, nobody has ever made a .50 cal or larger percussion revolver. Imagine a .54 caliber revolver with a 400 grain conical bullet going 900 fps? How about a .31 with a 9 shot cylinder that's removable like the 1858 NMA and also is loaded with conicals? That's an effective conceal carry piece right there for somebody in Poland or Canada or New York City.

1. Don't call them muzzleloaders. They don't load from the muzzle

2. Ruger already gave us a modern BP revolver - the ROA..A nice gun and a big seller but inferior to the 1858.

3. Remington caps work very well. They very very seldom cause jams in my 1858s. If you wish you can buy plastic sleeves that fit over the caps so they stay in one piece after firing.

4. A powerful pocket BP revolver is nearly impossible. BP needs a long barrel and it needs a lot of mass to soak up recoil to avoid the balls walking forward.

 

[Patocazador]

My dream black powder handgun would be a LeMat that worked flawlessly.

 

[Mr. Standfast]

The makers of the early cap and ball revolvers knew what they were doing. Things could be improved on, but most people who want one would have recreation in mind, and would at least like to go part-way on tradition.

The Colt was designed for a few skilled operators to set up machines for semi-skilled operators to use. Charles Dickens wrote an excellent article on Col.Colt's London factory, in which local people, many of them girls, were recruited from other trades. They turned out parts which could assembled with scarcely any hand fitting. They went out of business as the Adams and Tranter improved, for British and Belgian companies found it easier to keep the skilled long-term craftsmen their designs demanded, in a country without gold rushes and free land.

I like the Colt reliance on a large axis pin, grooved to accommodate fouling. I have owned a Remington replica and found that its small-diameter pin jammed easily with fouling. It also bears no axial load. The Colt pin has just as much metal in it as the weakest parts of the Remington frame and topstrap, and it can be stronger, heat-treated steel. It should be possible to use a square or acme thread, carried all the way back to act both as barrel attachment, and to accommodate fouling like the antique Colts. I'd be content with an open frame, but if anyone wasn't, the topstrap could engage with the frame above the hammer, by means of a thread of the same pitch.

I'd like to see a similar axis pin, perhaps of slightly larger diameter, with the front end threaded on, like the deceptively spidery-looking Lefaucheux pinfires, instead of locked by a wedge. I had a cap and ball open-frame Belgian Mariette like this, with a locking-screw turned by the trigger-guard, used as al ever. I'd also like an enlarged flange on that axis pin, against which the rotating star would bear. The threads of axis pin to frame therefore wouldn't be load-bearing.

I suppose another big decision is whether to make it stainless. Few cap and ball revolvers were nickel plated, but I have the factory rimfire conversion of the 1862 Pocket Navy. It is in modest condition, but it was given to me ("Do you think it is a real one"), and you don't look a gift Colt in the mouth. It still has quite a bit of its nickel, and stainless isn't that anachronistic.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

"My dream black powder handgun would be a LeMat that worked flawlessly."

That is my thinking too. I don't want to discourage the original poster from persuing his projects but me personally, I have no intrest in modern muzzleloaders. My dream muzzleloader would be a Colt replica that works flawlessly. Something like the Pietta 1858 Remington "Shooter's Model" but in a Colt Army, Navy or Dragoon, with short and long barrel accessories and shoulder stocks.