zip gun laws and building your own

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So if someone theoretically machined an adapter to fire .45 ACP, .45LC, and .410 shotshells from a standard .177 pump BB gun, would that be legal?

The machined piece was always intended to fire a bullet, but the BB rifle which sets the primer off was not. where does this fit in the homemade firearms spectrum?
 
and where on the BB gun is there a fireing pin unless this adapter includes that which would cost a fair bit to have made out of proper steel.
 
Gatling guns that are entirely mechanically cranked are considered to only fire once per operation of the firing mechanism by the shooter. That singular operation may be only 1/60th of a revolution, but as long as your hand is moving the crank (and NOT an electric motor moving the crank) it's not a machine gun.

Old Mauser pistols have been specifically exempted from the SBR rules if they use an ORIGINAL stock/holster. Same, I believe with some of the Hi-Powers. Use a reproduction (modern manufactured) butt stock and it will need a SBR registration.

There are also certain Marlin and Winchester lever-action rifles that were produced with 14" barrels. Some of these are specifically called out, by individual serial number, as being Curio and Relics and are exempt from the NFA rules. Identical rifles which are not listed, including any modern reproduction of the same rifle, have to be registered SBRs.

No, no, that's not what I'm asking. I understand that hand cranked only weapons are fully legal and not subject to NFA (such as 1919a with hand crank adapter).

What I'm asking about is the miniature gatling gun shown in post 18 and Naolith's response implying that even with the barrels that appear to be shorter than 18 inches, it would not be subject to NFA rules because of it being a Gatling gun.
 
So if someone theoretically machined an adapter to fire .45 ACP, .45LC, and .410 shotshells from a standard .177 pump BB gun, would that be legal?

The machined piece was always intended to fire a bullet, but the BB rifle which sets the primer off was not. where does this fit in the homemade firearms spectrum?
Sure, that would be legal provided it has a barrel length of 16 inches or longer and that the barrel is rifled. Or if the barrel is smoothbore, then it has to be 18 inches or longer. The rifle would also have to meet overall length requirements as well, something like 24 inches.

But once you convert it to fire a cartridge of some sort, it is now a firearm and subject to all rules and regulations that firearms have to follow such as transfers to FFL if being mailed, and that sort of thing. It is no longer considered a BB gun.

The only real gray area would be which part is considered the receiver, the machined part or the original BB gun receiver. But if kept together, its just a standard firearm like all others.
 
Good to know. My understanding though is that regardless of rifling, a barrel of .50 caliber or smaller and no stock= pistol in legal terms.

Think there might be a market out there for a BB gun to cartridge firearm converter?
 
Good to know. My understanding though is that regardless of rifling, a barrel of .50 caliber or smaller and no stock= pistol in legal terms.

Actually you don't have to have a stock on a rifle. Look at folding stock rifles with their stocks folded that are still operational.

The key point is that a pistol can't have a provision for a stock mounting point.
 
bobotech said:
RevolvingGarbage said:
Good to know. My understanding though is that regardless of rifling, a barrel of .50 caliber or smaller and no stock= pistol in legal terms.
Actually you don't have to have a stock on a rifle. Look at folding stock rifles with their stocks folded that are still operational.

The key point is that a pistol can't have a provision for a stock mounting point.

You guys are heading for trouble with those thoughts.

If a gun is designed from the get-go to be pistol, it only has to be 'able to be fired with one hand'. Nothing is written anywhere about "can/can't take a shoulder stock". There have been too many "nervous nellies" posting on these boards about 'welding it up so it can't take one at all", but that is not legally required.

If it was built as a "rifle", taking the shoulder stock off doesn't make it a "pistol".



The Gatling gun (full size or .22 caliber) is neither a rifle or a pistol. How is the barrel length measured?
 
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Actually you don't have to have a stock on a rifle. Look at folding stock rifles with their stocks folded that are still operational.

But the stock is still attached. A rifle with the stock removed no longer meets the definition of "rifle".

(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon
designed or redesigned, made or re-
made, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy
of an explosive to fire only a single pro-
jectile through a rifled bore for each
single pull of the trigger.

Once the stock is gone it cannot be intended to be fired from the shoulder, so it's no longer a rifle. The folding stocks are just for ease of storage and transportation, still intended to be fired from the shoulder. Whether you actually do isn't the point, it's intended to be used that way, so it's a rifle.

A rifle with the shoulder stock removed would only meet the definition of "firearm".

any weapon (including a starter gun)
which will or is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a projec-
tile by the action of an explosive; (B)
the frame or receiver of any such
weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or fire-
arm silencer; or (D) any destructive de-
vice. Such term does not include an
antique firearm.

We see the same with the pistol grip only shotguns. Teechnically they are not shotguns, since they are not intended to be fired from the shoulder. They are simply "firearms" and as such ATF has said that "firearms" must be sold under the same age restrictions etc as handguns, not rifles.

What I'm asking about is the miniature gatling gun shown in post 18 and Naolith's response implying that even with the barrels that appear to be shorter than 18 inches, it would not be subject to NFA rules because of it being a Gatling gun.

The Gatling gun refrenced above is also simply a "firearm", at least by definition. Same as the semi automatic Browning belt feds you see sold. Not rifles, since they have no stock and were not intended to be shoulder fired.

They would still be subject to the 16 (or is it 18) inch minimum barrel length requirement or they become NFA items "AOW". Maybe :)

I'm not clear on whether it is 16 or 18 inches. That one is not clearly addressed. The definition of SBR seems to imply that the rule only applies to rifles, which gatling guns are not. Fuzzy legal ground, and caution is a good idea.

The gatling gun manufacturer in the link above says:

Finished dimensions: Overall length 21 in.(gun) / 39 in.(gun and carriage). Overall height from floor 20 in. Scale field carriage has 18 in. diameter wheels. Breech diameter is 2 3/8 in. Uses 10 .22 cal. barrels, each 12 11/16 in. long by 0.465 inch OD.

So, going by SBR rules that breaks both of them, under 26 inch overall and barrels under 16. But, not being intended to be fired from a shoulder, is it still subject to those rules?

Probably end up one of those things where the ATF "interprets" the law however they want. Never forget that this agency made every shoestring in the US an illegal machinegun for a short time.

That's why it is so important to be careful when making your own, you can cross a line and be in big trouble quite easily. Most people end up writing tech branch of ATF to ask their interpretation before building anything.
 
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TexasRifleman said:
bobotech said:
Actually you don't have to have a stock on a rifle. Look at folding stock rifles with their stocks folded that are still operational.
But the stock is still attached. A rifle with the stock removed no longer meets the definition of "rifle".

Balderdash.

A rifle is designed as a rifle. When the end user removes the butt stock, they're not changing the fact that it was originally designed as a rifle. They've just neutered it's utility.

By your reasoning, we should be able to have machine gun receivers for our semi-auto guns, so long as the 'go fast' parts have been removed (at that point, it'd no longer meet the definition of 'machine gun')
 
A rifle is designed as a rifle. When the end user removes the butt stock, they're not changing the fact that it was originally designed as a rifle. They've just neutered it's utility.

By your reasoning, we should be able to have machine gun receivers for our semi-auto guns, so long as the 'go fast' parts have been removed (at that point, it'd no longer meet the definition of 'machine gun')

Well, there is a problem with that. Not with your reasoning, but with the way the ATF interprets this.

The ATF said that if you take a shotgun and remove the stock, leaving only a pistol grip, and you sell it, it no longer meets the definition of shotgun, it's now a "firearm" and must be sold under the same rules as handguns as far as age restrictions etc. even if it still meets the 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall length definition.

So, it may not make much sense but that's how our lovely friends at ATF are interpreting things.

Caution is advised to anyone who might try to think around them.
 
TexasRifleman said:
The ATF said that if you take a shotgun and remove the stock, leaving only a pistol grip, and you sell it, it no longer meets the definition of shotgun, it's now a "firearm" and must be sold under the same rules as handguns as far as age restrictions etc. even if it still meets the 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall length definition.
Again, you're not making sense.

You can make an AOW out of a shotgun that has never had a butt stock on it.
If the shotty has had a butt stock on it, it has to be papered as a SBS.

What you're saying is that if I buy a Remington 870 Police, change the butt stock for a pistol grip and sell it to you, you can paper it as an AOW, since it was sold w/o a butt stock.

Sorry, but the revenuers have long held to the view of "if it once had a butt stock, it's always considered to be a rifle or shotgun"
 
I want to make a single shot .22 pistol.

If I use an old .38 special revolver and put a barrel on it I assume it would be legal as the .38 started off as a firearm.

If I make something from scratch it is legal as I am the manufacturer and it always was a firearm.

What if..however.. I were to start with a blackpowder revolver and fit a rifled 22 barrel? Would that be a zipgun as the BP frame was never a 'firearm'?
 
You may make a Title I firearm for your own use out of anything you want, so long as it doesn't fall into any of the Title II territory (smooth bore handgun for example).

If you start with a pile of iron ore and an acorn and it takes you 50 years to grow your stock -- neither of those things ever were a firearm, but you sure can make one out of them.

-Sam
 
Ooooohhhhh, so if I were a gangbanger and built this contraption with a piece of pipe it would be NFA. Since I'm planning on using a rifled barrel and not making an AOW or SBR out of it then I'll be cool as long as I follow all the other rules (no foregrip, etc.)

Makes sense...for the ATF anyway.
 
§46.01.(16) a zip gun is "a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance."

That would even include a Potato Gun........(Do you guys know what that is?).......I hope AL laws are different or the one I had when my boat sank would not have been legal.
 
Ooooohhhhh, so if I were a gangbanger and built this contraption with a piece of pipe it would be NFA. Since I'm planning on using a rifled barrel and not making an AOW or SBR out of it then I'll be cool as long as I follow all the other rules (no foregrip, etc.)

I think you've got the picture, except that you don't have to be a gangbanger.

I don't think we have any worry about gang-bangers whipping up "zip" guns. Kind of like the switchblade issue, that's a fairly illogical holdover from back in the bad old days. (Read the NFA if you want to see more such prohibition-era legislative lunacy that can't be thought logical even if you squint and hold your tongue just right while reading...)

The lowest-ranking gang member doesn't want anything to do with some jury rigged pipe-and-plywood single-shot, smooth-bore "zip gun." There are enough Glocks, High-Points, and many other, better guns out there on the black market to arm every "G" that ever tried to pop a cap.

------------------

Spud gun?

Q: How do I obtain a classification from ATF for my “potato gun?”

Any person desiring a classification of a “potato gun,” “spud gun” or similar device must submit a written request (not e-mail) to the Director and include a complete and accurate description of the device, the name and address of the manufacturer or importer, the purpose for which it is intended, and such photographs, diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to make a classification. A final determination may require physical examination of the device. Such requests for classification should be submitted to: Bureau of ATF, Firearms Technology Branch.

-Sam
 
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