Domestic 7.62x39 .308 bullets rifles and ammo fact or myth?

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R.W.Dale

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I'm a bit of a 7.62x39 fanatic who loves monkeying around with this cartrige and I would like to find out with certanty weither or not there are actually any factory rifles with the "domestic" .308 bores or for that matter any production .308 ammo.

I awalys read about domestic .308 this and ruger .308 that BUT is it fact or fiction. So far i've not found any .308 bullet factory ammo. I have not owned one of the rugers yet the M77 or the mini30 that are alleged to have a .308 bore but I've read a couple of posts that claim these rifles actually slugg out to .310

I know that most sources claimed that my CZ527 would have a .308 bore. But after slugging the bore I got a measurment of .310 in the groove and .300 on the lands

So my appeal is to you ruger owners out there please chime in and confirm this or dispell it as firearm fiction
 
Interesting! What domestic ammo have you measured & how long have you been measuring?

As recently as a few months ago, American Rifleman (in a review of the CZ527 carbine) repeated the claim that domestic 7.62x39mm hunting ammo was loaded with .308 bullets. To top it off, they claim that the bore of the 527 is also .308... :confused:

Here's the quote.

"Groove diameter of the 527's barrel is .308'' as domestic, factory loaded, softpoint 7.62x39 mm is loaded with .308''-diameter bullets, brass cartridge cases and is non-corrosive Boxer primed. Military ammunition in 7.62x39 mm is normally loaded with .311'' bullets, steel cartridge cases and often corrosive Berdan primers. We found both types of ammunition functioned well in the Model 527. Feeding and chambering were smoothest with steel case ammunition, while extraction and ejection were noticeably easier with brass cases."
 
JohnKSa said:
Interesting! What domestic ammo have you measured & how long have you been measuring?

As recently as a few months ago, American Rifleman (in a review of the CZ527 carbine) repeated the claim that domestic 7.62x39mm hunting ammo was loaded with .308 bullets. To top it off, they claim that the bore of the 527 is also .308... :confused:

Here's the quote.

"Groove diameter of the 527's barrel is .308'' as domestic, factory loaded, softpoint 7.62x39 mm is loaded with .308''-diameter bullets, brass cartridge cases and is non-corrosive Boxer primed. Military ammunition in 7.62x39 mm is normally loaded with .311'' bullets, steel cartridge cases and often corrosive Berdan primers. We found both types of ammunition functioned well in the Model 527. Feeding and chambering were smoothest with steel case ammunition, while extraction and ejection were noticeably easier with brass cases."
Click to expand...


Just plain wrong :cuss: the lead slug I drove through the bore on my CZ 527 does not lie, I read that article before buying the rifle, it was only afterward I fount it to be completely untrue. Wich is the point im my starting this topic.
 
This argument is precisely the reason I posed a similar question to the forum weeks ago. :(

To be certain, I will need to slug my bore and get some calipers to check the ammunition.

jmm
 
Bore Dia.

I posed this question to Ruger tech support some years ago when I was contemplating purchasing a mini 30 for the reasons you mention. I was interested in working with the 7.62x39 but mainly if I could get it in a 308 bore and shoot/reload 308 bullets in it. According to the factory rep the early runs of the mini had the 308 bore. I do not remember how long they built them this way, only that somewhere in my searching the serial # process my interest in the project died and I moved on to other pastures. Hope this helps. Also, I never verified the information, nor have I seen it anywhere else so take it for what it is worth.;)

captainkirk
 
I don't know if any rifles have .308 bore, but I do know that my two SKSs shoot pretty well with .308 diameter handloads. They seem to shoot as well as Wolff ammo or Norinco, about 3 MOA. I load a 135 grain Sierra Game King "pistol" bullet, designed for shooting in Contender .30-30s. Works great on game and shoots well. So, I don't lose any sleep over the fact that the bore diameter of the guns is a few thousandths too big.
 
MCgunner said:
I don't know if any rifles have .308 bore, but I do know that my two SKSs shoot pretty well with .308 diameter handloads. They seem to shoot as well as Wolff ammo or Norinco, about 3 MOA. I load a 135 grain Sierra Game King "pistol" bullet, designed for shooting in Contender .30-30s. Works great on game and shoots well. So, I don't lose any sleep over the fact that the bore diameter of the guns is a few thousandths too big.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I'm not saying that .308 bullets won't shoot in fact they usually shoot pretty well. My fav load is using 125gr Nosler ballistic tips. But I just wanna find out the facts on this issue.
 
I have a Handi-Rifle but not in 7.62x39 , mine is a rechambered .357maximum. So yes I was just wanting to know for academic pouropses. Some of the fellas on the handi rifle forum report having trouble getting the recessed primers found in some x39 ammo to go off.
 
An article I read ages ago about a "mini Mauser" imported by Charles Daily referenced some kind of evidence suggesting that the entirety of 7.62x39 rifle bores were in fact done on the Mosin Nagant pattern which generally resulted in poor accuracy due to the differences in projectile dimensions. In point of fact, the author wrote that whole blurb to explain why the 7.62x39 shot so poorly compared to a full sized Mauser in .308 Win. I've always wondered if that author was correct. It seems like I've read that Mosin Nagant's actually have a .310" groove diameter.
 
Just plain wrong the lead slug I drove through the bore on my CZ 527 does not lie
Click to expand...

Correct. The article is wrong. CZ's have the standard .311" bore, which is proper for the cartridge. Ruger is the only outfit I know of with a .308" bore for the x39, at least in the first run of Mini-30's. I've always heard it was because at the time of the Mini-30's release the x39 was seen as a handloader's proposition only. I don't believe they're still making Mini-30's with the .308" bore, but you could check with them on that.

The standard Mosin bore diameter is based on the old "three line" measurement, which IIRC equals about .311" inch. There is nothing inherently less accurate about this bore size than a .308" bore. There are some historical variations in bore size between some early Finnish rifles and the Soviets, plus some rifles that got overbored because of wartime production problems or from getting lands re-cut in a rearsenal job. The article about the Daily mini-Mauser sounds like complete bunk. In a proper rifle, handloaded x39 with standard .311" diameter bullets can be sub-MOA accurate.
 
I'm a long-time, devoted, cast-bullet nut of the worst sort, and internal barrel dimensions can be critical in the cast-bullet game.

Therefore, when I obtained my stainless Ruger Model 77 bolt-action in 7.62x39, one of the priorities was to find out what the bore dimensions REALLY are. As mentioned earlier, the lead slug doesn't lie.

Are you ready? This 7.62x39 M77 Ruger bore has a groove diameter of .3105", definitely NOT a standard .308" barrel. It was slugged three times to be absolutely sure of the result.

It has now digested well over 150 separate and distinct cast-bullet recipes, ten rounds per combination,with bullets from 130 to 220 grains, all sized at .312". Powders ranged from Unique to IMR 4350, and decent results were obtained with quite a few of my loads.
 
Mmm...does that mean you can shoot 7.62x39 in a .308 rifle? I mean if you handload it into the chamber of say a b/a or single shot .308.
 
No.

"Bullet" is the part of a round of ammunition that actually is fired. The cartridge would be 7.62x39mm or .308 Winchester...two different cartridges.

John
 
7.62 x 39

Ed Harris (formerly of Ruger's QC dept) is on our cast bullet list [email protected], I'll raise the question with him. I have a NUMBER of his cast bullet articles from 1995 that he wrote and either from one of his posts or from his articles, I recall learning this ruger camp carbine 7.62 x 39 issue began as a .308, then acknowledging the fact that surplus ammo was .310, the cut a taper into the lead to swage the bigger bullets down to the .308 size. I heard it worked

I have a VZ 24 (Mauser '98 straight bolt-handle design) short rifle that George Stringer installed an aftermarket bbl for 7.62 x 39. It takes my lee 155 2R cast bullet reloads fine. My eyes are so poor I cant use the original military sights

Yodar
 
So how do .308 bullets shoot through a .311 bore? Anybody tried 7.62x39 handloads like that?
 
Someone did an extensive test of .308" vs. .311" handloads in the CZ. The wider bores can often fire .308" bullets just fine. The famous D166 Finnish 7.62x53R load used .308" bullets. Remember we're talking about .308" bullets, NOT repeat NOT .308 cartridges.
 
Correia since krochus is out of town i'll answer your question for him. He tried .308 and .311 bullets that were indentical except for diameter of course in his cz. The .308 bullets were slightly slower (i don't recall how much but not a lot) and the accuracy was the same as the .311 loads. Which still leaves the question of why american 7.62x39 ammo shoots so poorly.
 
Interesting. I hadn't ever really thought of that. Do you recall how much slower? (I'm assuming it is because the bullet isn't seated as snug you lose presurre around it).
 
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